[Andrew Buck]

I'm currently reading "The Greatest Game Ever Played" and while I'm not sure if all the history is true, it offered that Harry Vardon enjoyed his trips to North America so much because there was less of a "class system" and he was treated much more as an equal being allowed to eat in clubhouses, etc. 

This struck me in context to recent conversations here that have pointed out the much greater latitude exclusive clubs in the UK offer to outside play at certain times to the virtually non-existent accessibility at many of the top clubs in the US.  Essentially, did both systems evolve, or did they just start differently? 

Also, I know Pasatiempo is a "semi-private" club that offers outside play closer to the GB&I model.  While I'm sure the outside play lowers annual cost, with members owning the course and "initiation" at approximately $100k, I'm sure they could convert if they desired.  Has this always been the case, and are there any other US examples of High End member owned courses that open to the public?

[Pete Lavallee]

Andrew,

Pasatiempo survived bankruptcy in the depression through the deep pockets of a member. When they came out of bankruptcy they incorporated, so they are not a member owned club. As such they do not have tax exempt status and need the cash flow that visitor play provides to help pay Uncle Sam's bill.

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew,

Pasatiempo survived bankruptcy in the depression through the deep pockets of a member. When they came out of bankruptcy they incorporated, so they are not a member owned club. As such they do not have tax exempt status and need the cash flow that visitor play provides to help pay Uncle Sam's bill.

Thanks for the background, that is very interesting.  It looks like you have to own stock in the corporation, which is about $100k, to be a member.  Now, if the members are essentially the stock holders, what taxes would they have to pay if they ran at a break-even and essentially generated no taxable income?  

A quick search shows around 300 members pay $5,000 - $7,500 a year and they allow 4,500 rounds at $200 to the public.  That would generate about $900k.  If the members each decided they were willing to spend $3,000 more a year to bring it to $10k, you would seemingly get back to the same profit (and tax burden).  It just seems to me, if people are willing to spend close to 6 figures to by stock, the additional $3,000 certainly wouldn't put them out of line with other clubs, if that was their desire?

[Thomas Dai]

I'm trying to think off the top of my head of courses in the UK that arn't accessable, ie you don't have to be a members guest to gain access and/or they don't openly publish a green fee or 'how to play here' details on their websites?

The clubs/courses that come to mind are Swinley Forest - do they even have a website? - and the newby Queenwood seems rather discouraging. Is that their aim? Some, like say Rye for example, are apparently by application but still possible. Loch Lomond used to be guests only but even though there's nothing specific on their website I've heard that playing as a visitor is possible there these days although I'm not sure of the detail. Even Carnigie/Skibo is now allowing visitors, if your prepared to folk out the £$£$.

I could be incorrect about some of the above. If so I'm sure someone will put me right!

Anyone think of any other clubs/courses in the UK that are restrictive to members or members guests only?

All the best.

[Adam Lawrence]

I'm trying to think off the top of my head of courses in the UK that arn't accessable, ie you don't have to be a members guest to gain access and/or they don't openly publish a green fee or 'how to play here' details on their websites?

The clubs/courses that come to mind are Swinley Forest - do they even have a website? - and the newby Queenwood seems rather discouraging. Is that their aim? Some, like say Rye for example, are apparently by application but still possible. Loch Lomond used to be guests only but even though there's nothing specific on their website I've heard that playing as a visitor is possible there these days although I'm not sure of the detail. Even Carnigie/Skibo is now allowing visitors, if your prepared to folk out the £$£$.

I could be incorrect about some of the above. If so I'm sure someone will put me right!

Anyone think of any other clubs/courses in the UK that are restrictive to members or members guests only?

All the best.

Swinley and Rye are not the tough tickets they used to be. In fact, I don't think there is an old money club in the UK that is really hard to get on as a visitor now. The only ones that are genuinely difficult are the new money clubs - Queenwood, Wisley etc. The new St Andrews International on the hill above the town says it will be truly private, so does Centurion in St Albans.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for the clarification Adam,
All the best.

[Marty Bonnar]

I think Vardon was speaking more of the golf professional's relationship to clubs and their standing those days. They were second-class citizens in the eyes of members this side of the pond.
M.

[Jud_T]

Groucho Marx’s letter of resignation to the Friars’ Club: “I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members."

[JMEvensky]

I think Vardon was speaking more of the golf professional's relationship to clubs and their standing those days. They were second-class citizens in the eyes of members this side of the pond.
M.

Agreed--the movie makes a good point of showing Vardon's second-class standing.

But I really only responded to give myself the opportunity to quote someone with such great taste in music.Anyone citing 2 of my favorite Steely Dan tunes is a truly knowledgeable music fan.

[Andrew Buck]

I think Vardon was speaking more of the golf professional's relationship to clubs and their standing those days. They were second-class citizens in the eyes of members this side of the pond.
M.

I think that is precisely the case, but creates an odd dichotomy, in my eyes.  It seems odd that the English would seemingly hold a greater sense of exclusivity in the member/worker relationship, to the point of not allowing the most famous golfer in the world to eat in a clubhouse, yet at the same time open up their courses to non-members at times.  On the flip side, American's showed much greater acceptance to Vardon and drew much less distinction in class, yet are much less likely to share their course with non-members.  

It may be as simple as in GB&I, clubs always opened there doors to members of other clubs, as they were all in the same class (to be members) and overtime more took up the game to meet the criteria to access on "Open" days.  

[Pete Lavallee]

Andrew,

Although all private Clubs in the UK will let you play their golf course no one said you would be allowed to eat there! Many Clubs do not allow guests to dine in the Members Dining Room and some ban women from entering completely. There is always an alternative for guests however, be it dining on the patio or at the bar.

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew,

Although all private Clubs in the UK will let you play their golf course no one said you would be allowed to eat there! Many Clubs do not allow guests to dine in the Members Dining Room and some ban women from entering completely. There is always an alternative for guests however, be it dining on the patio or at the bar.

Pete,  

I understand that to be the case.  That only establishes that the English Clubs still desire some level of exclusivity and privacy, so there has to be a reason they allow outsiders to play their courses without knowing members at select times?  

I know Patrick Mucci opined it's about laws, and maybe that plays a role today, but I think these relative policies became established long before legalities had strong influences.    

[David_Tepper]

Andrew B. -

I agree with Martin Bonnar and JEvensky on this. Vardon's comments were directed to how professional golfers were treated in his times by private clubs in the UK (excluded) vs. how they were treated by private clubs in the U.S. (welcomed). His comments have nothing to do with "access" issues for visiting golfers.

I believe there is a famous clock at Inverness GC (near Cleveland OH) that was donated by a group of British professional golfers as a token of appreciation for how they were treated and welcomed into the clubhouse by that golf club when the US Open was held there.  

In contrast, there is a famous story about how Walter Hagen was barred from having lunch at a British golf club when he was there to play in the Open. To deal with the situation, he decided to have a picnic lunch with champagne while sitting in his hired Rolls Royce in the club's parking lot.

In terms of social standing, professional golfers in Britain were considered to be "tradesmen" & 2nd class citizens well into the 1920's.

With regards to access issues, it would be intersting to know when the Britsh clubs began to welcome non-members on a daily fee basis.

DT    

[Jon Wiggett]

Andrew,

the reason why Vardon was not allowed into the clubhouse was to do with him being a professional sportsman. Here in the UK as late as the 1960's many sports felt that the amateur game was of a purer and therefore higher form of the sport. Vardon played for money and was therefore of a lower standing. The US not only accepted professional sports players but actually held them in esteem in Harry's day so he was accepted and even treated better as a result.

DT,

most but not all UK clubs have always accepted outside play.


Jon

[David_Tepper]

Here is the full story on the clock at Inverness:

God measures men by what they are Not by what they in wealth possess This vibrant message chimes afar The voice of Inverness The above inscription resides on a grandfather clock presented by a group of golf professionals to Inverness Club at the 1931 U.S. Open. The incredible show of generosity resulted from something that happened at Inverness eleven years prior during the 1920 U.S. Open and forever changed the game of golf. From the time golf began in the U.S. through 1920 professional golfers had been looked upon unfavorably . . . to be frank, they were not considered gentlemen. Because of this second class social status golf professionals had not been allowed inside the clubhouses at the golf clubs where they worked, visited or played in tournaments. In this day and age of superstar golfers like Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and Rory McIlroy its pretty hard to fathom that anyone would look down their noses at them, but things were clearly different at the turn of the 20th century. So, at the 1920 U.S. Open Inverness Club decided to open its clubhouse to both the amateurs AND professionals that were competing in the championship. This was a groundbreaking act by Inverness and other clubs followed in suit which began the process of golf professionals receiving the same amount of respect as their amateur counterparts. The grandfather clock was a thank you gift to the club for breaking down that barrier from Walter Hagen and the other top professionals… More >

http://www.golftripper.com/course-profiles/inverness-club/   

[David_Tepper]

The story on Hagen's picnic lunch:

After a down period for World War I, The Haig came back to win his second U.S. Open in a playoff with Mike Brady at Brae Burn in Newton, Mass. Then it was on to bigger things at the British Open and winning over a whole new legion of fans. The Brits quickly took him to their hearts, thanks to his courtly manner and his heroic play out of the gorse and knee-high rough on the British courses. But getting into the clubhouse and using the facilities was something else.

To circumvent the exclusion problem, Hagen rented a Rolls Royce with chauffeur and parked it alongside the clubhouse. He used this as a combination dressing and eating room. When he broke for lunch, the chauffeur, appropriately dressed, would serve The Haig, complete with champagne. Of course, the Brits were overwhelmed by this gaudy behavior, and even more impressed when, at the presentation of prizes, he turned over the first prize check, which amounted to about $50 in American dollars, to his caddie as a tip.

http://www.worldgolf.com/wglibrary/ross/ross2.html

[Mark Chaplin]

David - all very cute from world golf.com;  this actually happened at Deal in 1920 according to Hagen's (auto)biography, it was his first Open and he came last, so there wouldn't have been a winners fee.

What makes the Inverness clock so interesting is it was given the very same year that the incident happened at Cinque Ports when Hagen went into the clubhouse and was politely ejected and sent to the caddy room to get changed.

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

Golf clubs in Argentina follow the same pattern of clubs in the UK, although a bit less formal (no ties and jackets required in the dining room) and taking into account that the game is not that popular around here. Clubs face similar challenges. I believe that many very closed clubs are required to relax their accesibility requirements due to the need to generate income. There is a say in Spanish that states that necessity has the face of an heretic, which means that when you are in need, you tend to be less dogmatic or strict.

This is the challenge that golf clubs in Argentina face everyday and, due to the crisis, it may well be the same challenge faced by clubs in the UK. You are forced to open your gates, but at the same time, don't open them too much so that you start losing members, because they think that it's the same being or not being a member. As a club, you are required to keep a sense of belonging in your members. They have to feel that it really makes a difference being a member. To achieve that, you have to retain certain "areas" reserved for members, wether by limiting access only to members on certain days (weekends) or to certain areas of the club like the dining room, the main locker room or others. Otherwise, you run the risk of becoming a municipal golf course. This may be the reason for which UK golf clubs have relaxed their requirements to allow access, but at the same time still restrict certain days or areas.

Regards,

[Tony_Muldoon]

It seems the right thread to post this thought.

Another difference is the traditional clubs in GB&I favouring 2 ball Matchplay and the USA clubs favouring ‘Medal’ play.

What is so curious is that Medal play came from the working man’s game in the UK.  In the 19thC workers did get access to the course, but much less frequently than Gentlemen could. Typically they got to play Saturday afternoons and in Scotland, New Year’s Day. To maximise their golfing time and to allow for larger completion days, Medal play was the preferred method.

At first Professionals played matches, often with a rich sponsors making and betting on the match. Later Park in particular put his own money on the line, but these died out circa 1890.  The Amateur Championship is still matchplay, The Open has always been Medal play and professionals dominated form the start.

So the game that came to be favoured in the USA was based on the working man’s and professional’s play.  This method was then re exported and became the preferred standard all over the world, including the vast majority of UK clubs today. 

How much true 2 ball culture is there in the USA today?  I  suspect CB MacDonald would be sadly disappointed.

[John Kavanaugh]

Americans predominately play match play. Be it low ball/low total or any other of many team games we play from hole to hole with a bet on each.  We simply do not have the patience to wait until the end of a round to find out who wins.

As far as accessibility goes I seriously doubt that there is a poster on this site that can name 10 courses in the United States that they want to play and can not.  As a matter of fact most private clubs "advertise" on their web sites that they want you to come and play.  My God, the foundation of this web site is based on this very access.

[Carl Johnson]

It seems the right thread to post this thought.

Another difference is the traditional clubs in GB&I favouring 2 ball Matchplay and the USA clubs favouring ‘Medal’ play.
. . . .
How much true 2 ball culture is there in the USA today?  I  suspect CB MacDonald would be sadly disappointed.

Tony, in my USA private golf club experience there is virtually no 2-ball play, with the exception of several match play club tournaments.  The play that predominates is 4-ball match play (best ball of two players versus best ball of their two opponents).  There are variations involving more players and more balls, but it's going to be X best balls out of Y, team vs. team.  Day in and day out I see no medal play.  There are some guys who just tour the course together and keep their own stroke play scores, but they really aren't playing against each other.  Again, this is just my experience at my club.

I also see access to USA private clubs becoming a little more open at the levels below the really expensive, really socially private clubs.  It's the economy . . . .

[Mark Pearce]

Tony,

Be honest.  Name 10 UK clubs that have strong 2 ball cultures, to the point of requiring 2 ball play by visitors?

I'll give you RCP and Prestwick as a starter.

[Andrew Buck]

It seems the right thread to post this thought.

Another difference is the traditional clubs in GB&I favouring 2 ball Matchplay and the USA clubs favouring ‘Medal’ play.

So the game that came to be favoured in the USA was based on the working man’s and professional’s play.  This method was then re exported and became the preferred standard all over the world, including the vast majority of UK clubs today. 

How much true 2 ball culture is there in the USA today?  I  suspect CB MacDonald would be sadly disappointed.

Tony,

My experiences is while most (not all) tournament golf is medal play in the US, almost all casual golf is some variation of Matchplay.  I've probably played a thousand non tournament competitive rounds and nearly all have been some variation of matchplay.  Now, it's rarely pure matchplay, but always based on a hole-by-hole match.  Most commonly for me has been a 4 point scotch game that consists of two man teams with points for low ball, low total, birdie and proxy, with points doubling if you get all 4.

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

Tony,

Be honest.  Name 10 UK clubs that have strong 2 ball cultures, to the point of requiring 2 ball play by visitors?

I'll give you RCP and Prestwick as a starter.

Add Royal St. George's and Rye.

[JMEvensky]

Most commonly for me has been a 4 point scotch game that consists of two man teams with points for low ball, low total, birdie and proxy, with points doubling if you get all 4.

Apologies for the sidetrack,but could you explain what a proxy is?

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