Difference in accessibilty between GB&I and USA

[Mark Pearce]

Mid to high handicappers in the UK shouldn't play to handicap very often.  I'm always suspicious of those that do.

[Mark Chaplin]

Places like Sunningdale, Walton Heath and The Berkshire have a two ball and four ball course and they flip at lunch.

I believe Muirfield started the four ball days for visitors. Sandwich is Tuesday and Deal Monday and Thursday.

I've mentioned before Deal has a fourball member competition, it's played in February to ensure everyone freezes for four hours and forgets the idea until the following February!!

[Josh Stevens]

Those clubs lucky enough to have 36 holes, can of course set one aside for visitors and 4 ball play.

I dont know why the accessibility is different - I suspect because there is an expectation that if you want your members to be made welcome elsewhere then you had better make your own course available to outsiders.  It just seems good manners and that ethos carries out to countries that hold to the UK model such as Australia.  If someone showed up at our place from Royal Melbourne or Muirfield they would be welcome, if they were from Cypress Point or Augusta we would be justified in refusing them access on the basis the courtesy would not be returned  - we wouldnt, but we would be justified in doing so.

Why is it that top level US clubs are so rude - perhaps it is the silly cost?  If you are paying $250k in nomination fees, then yes, I suppose you would feel agreived at letting average Joe on for free.  Why anyone would pay that is beyond me, but I can see how that would create a barrier.

[Jim_Bick]

A key driver of the difference in accessibility is US tax, discrimination and liquor laws. Private clubs need to be "strictly private" to maintain their ability to operate under various exemptions they find advantageous. Allowing people with no relation to the club to call up and play for a fee undercuts their ability to defend themselves as "strictly private". The higher profile the club, the more outside entities (specially political/taxing bodies)are looking to get them considered public. I'm sure if most high profile US clubs could safely have a couple visitors days during the week like the UK clubs, you wouldn't see any difference in accessibility

[Scott Warren]

Josh,

Why is it that top level US clubs are so rude

Which clubs have treated you rudely?

I've encountered far more rudeness in the UK & Aus than at any top US club I have visited.

[Sean_A]

A key driver of the difference in accessibility is US tax, discrimination and liquor laws. Private clubs need to be "strictly private" to maintain their ability to operate under various exemptions they find advantageous. Allowing people with no relation to the club to call up and play for a fee undercuts their ability to defend themselves as "strictly private". The higher profile the club, the more outside entities (specially political/taxing bodies)are looking to get them considered public. I'm sure if most high profile US clubs could safely have a couple visitors days during the week like the UK clubs, you wouldn't see any difference in accessibility

Isn't that tax threshold actually quite high in relative terms?  I think we have discussed this a few times.  Most clubs choose to eat up that outside income with big charity events etc rather than piecemeal it through visitor days.  I bet there are some private US clubs that actually take in more outside money than a lot of UK clubs, just a different way of going about it.  The US has a much stronger culture of charity than the UK does.

Ciao

[Martin Toal]

On the contentious subject of US vs UK handicaps, I have always thought that the USD handicaps were a point or two lower than the equivalent UK one. That is based on playing with a variety of players in the US some of whom may have had vanity handicaps, as well as chatting to a few UK guys I know who played college golf in the US.

I think a lot of it is to do with the course ratings which seem to be higher than I would expect for an equivalent course over here.

I have also seen players in the US take mulligans, improve their lies and all that stuff, then at the end of the round say the card will help their handicap.

Is the UK system designed to measure potential, or absolute?  Between adjustments, and only using 10 out of 20 scores the US system is designed to be lower than "average".  I truly think this makes sense for assigning strokes in matchplay, but I understand Brent's objection to the "garbage in". 

In terms of the calculation method, I think they turn out similar. The US moving average system using the mean(ish) of the best 10 of 20 is the same as using the 75th percentile (from best to worst). In the UK system, an adjustment is applied after every tournament round, but the adjustment upwards for a bad round is fixed and small and the reduction for a good round is open ended, so the system is also asymmetrical in favour of a balance point well towards the better end of your likely scoring spectrum. A typical player with a stable handicap would probably expect to better or equal their handicap 1 in 3 or 4 rounds. In both systems, the effect on handicap of a player who averages a certain score with very inconsistent golf is different from another with the same average from pretty consistent golf.

So I still think it is the underlying course rating which is the biggest variable of difference.

[Jack_Marr]

I don't know of any clubs in Ireland that don't accept green fees. I believe they were planning one those private, members-only clubs in Kerry, but couldn't get permission to develop the dunesland.

I don't know if it's different all over the world, but in Ireland there's the idea that the farmers are keeping the land in trust for the people... and we have, maybe, more a connection with the land than a lot of other countries, in terms of ownership. We were trying to hold on to it for long enough.

 So excluding people, maybe, is not as acceptable.

[Andrew Buck]

A key driver of the difference in accessibility is US tax, discrimination and liquor laws. Private clubs need to be "strictly private" to maintain their ability to operate under various exemptions they find advantageous. Allowing people with no relation to the club to call up and play for a fee undercuts their ability to defend themselves as "strictly private". The higher profile the club, the more outside entities (specially political/taxing bodies)are looking to get them considered public. I'm sure if most high profile US clubs could safely have a couple visitors days during the week like the UK clubs, you wouldn't see any difference in accessibility

Isn't that tax threshold actually quite high in relative terms?  I think we have discussed this a few times.  Most clubs choose to eat up that outside income with big charity events etc rather than piecemeal it through visitor days.  I bet there are some private US clubs that actually take in more outside money than a lot of UK clubs, just a different way of going about it.  The US has a much stronger culture of charity than the UK does.

Ciao

I'm not familiar with the rules in detail, but I do know the small town member owned semi-private club I grew up on is still a non-profit, and they have very little restrictions on outside play.  Of course, since most member owned clubs really don't turn a profit, I feel like that aspect may be overblown.  Now, a larger issue could be an institution deemed public may lose it's right to have "exclusionary" rules (such as a men's only day).  

That said, I tend to agree with JakaB, that access isn't a huge issue for those who both want it and can afford it, except at a very small group of clubs.  I also understand that the commentary on Vardon's acceptance wasn't about accessibility.  The reason I started the thread and my interest is I feel like these different systems developed early on, and weren't forced by laws.  I am interested in the history of it, and I see a dichotomy between the English system of treating professionals as laborers in the early days, yet still granting access, as compared to the US system that I grew up with.

[Sean_A]

I haven't come close to properly testing JakaB's theory because I find it a bit distasteful to go in search of invites without properly being invited - if you know what I mean.  I have written a few letters with some success and leaned on guys I know that said they could help.  Generally speaking though, I am not on a mission to play the "big tickets".  I must admit it is easy for me to have that attitude because I can access loads of fine golf not terribly far from home without any hassle .  

I too would like to know how the systems started.  I get the impression that in Scotland golf was fairly affordable back in the day and that later on that attitude wasn't carried over to England.  Sure, there was probably a sense of noblesse oblige, but I think there was a fairly strict line between middle class and working class and golf was a middle class game, just as was cricket and rugby.  Football was working class stuff.  Somewhere along the line the English clubs opened up, probably the following the 2nd WW when clubs were desperate for members and the middle class was just starting to meld into a more inclusive group of people.  I don't see how working class folks could afford green fees and the time off work even if they had access.  Thus, in England there is a tradition of artisan clubs populated by working class folks.  Not many remain relative to 75 years ago.  There was also a bit of a movement by JH Taylor and Hawtree to build public courses.  Anyway, for the most part, these two alternatives for lower middle class folks didn't pan out very well, but what did happen was a ton more clubs opened up which catered to these folks.  That system is still in place today where there are loads of modest clubs which have dues under £1000 a year.  I don't think there are many US clubs which are that cheap and accessible.  Instead, in the US, public and muni courses took off. I bet there are about the same percent of private to public in GB&I as public to private in the US.  Theoretically, there is little need for US players to gain membership of private courses and vice versa in GB&I.  

Ciao  

[Andrew Buck]

I haven't come close to properly testing JakaB's theory because I find it a bit distasteful to go in search of invites without properly being invited - if you know what I mean.  I have written a few letters with some success and leaned on guys I know that said they could help.  Generally speaking though, I am not on a mission to play the "big tickets".  I must admit it is easy for me to have that attitude because I can access loads of fine golf not terribly far from home without any hassle .  

Sean,

I agree with you on all accounts.  I do think *many* clubs are much more open to a simple call from a club professional or a letter than the general golfing public realizes, however that is still a far cry from setting aside tee times.  As it is, I wouldn't likely have the time to take advantage of that much anyway, but I enjoy learning about the differences.

[David_Tepper]

Jaka B's "theory" is utter nonsense. To compare access to private golf clubs for the traveling/visiting golfer in GB&I vs. the US is close to a waste of time, as there is virtually no comparison.

A traveling/visiting golfer to GB&I can secure a teetime at 95% or more of the golf clubs there by a simple phone call or e-mail. In many cases you can now book a teetime online. You can even drive into the parking lot, walk into the pro shop and ask if there is a time you can play that day or the next. Other than showing a minimum of decorum, nothing else is required other than occasionally being asked to produce a handicap certificate demonstrating some level of golfing competence.

Could a traveling/visiting golfer in the US do the same at even 5% of the private golf clubs in the US? The answer is no and even JakaB knows that.

Yes, there are many GCA-ers who are connected and have friends who have friends who can help them play/access many of the private clubs in the US. But what about golfers who play at munis, where they don't have a club pro to make a helpful phone call for them or who don't have buddies at the tony private club in town? What about golfers who would rather not impose on and ask favors of their friends?

In no way can one claim that accees to private club in the US is even remotely simlar to access to the private clubs in GB&I.      

[Thomas Dai]

Do private clubs in the US hold amateur club 'open' competitions which members of other clubs, or those with proper handicaps can play in? Singles opens, same sex pairs opens, mixed pairs opens, team alliances, junior opens etc?

Most clubs, although not all, in the UK hold these kind of events and they're very popular. Not only do they provide additional accessability, but the entry fees are normally cheaper than standard greenfees, the courses tend to be preped-up a bit and you might even win a prize. Some clubs even have Golf Weeks with different types of open comp held on each day.

All the best

[Thomas Dai]

Do private clubs in the US hold amateur club 'open' competitions which members of other clubs, or those with proper handicaps can play in? Singles opens, same sex pairs opens, mixed pairs opens, team alliances, junior opens etc?

Most clubs, although not all, in the UK hold these kind of events and they're very popular. Not only do they provide additional accessability, but the entry fees are normally cheaper than standard greenfees, the courses tend to be preped-up a bit and you might even win a prize. Some clubs even have Golf Weeks with different types of open comp held on each day.

All the best

[JMEvensky]

Jaka B's "theory" is utter nonsense. To compare access to private golf clubs for the traveling/visiting golfer in GB&I vs. the US is close to a waste of time, as there is virtually no comparison.

A traveling/visiting golfer to GB&I can secure a teetime at 95% or more of the golf clubs there by a simple phone call or e-mail. In many cases you can now book a teetime online. You can even drive into the parking lot, walk into the pro shop and ask if there is a time you can play that day or the next. Other than showing a minimum of decorum, nothing else is required other than occasionally being asked to produce a handicap certificate demonstarting some level of golfing competence.

Could a traveling/visiting golfer in the US do the same at even 5% of the private golf clubs in the US? The answer is no and even JakaB knows that.

Yes, there are many GCA-ers who are connected and have friends who have friends who can help them play/access many of the private clubs in the US. But what about golfers who play at munis, where they don't have a club pro to make a helpful phone call for them or who don't have buddies at the tony private club in town? What about golfers who would rather not impose on and ask favors of their friends?

In no way can one claim that accees to private club in the US is even remotely simlar to access to the private clubs in GB&I.  
    

DT is right.Absent some kind of introduction from a member,the private clubs everyone wants to access are just about inaccessible.

[JMEvensky]

Do private clubs in the US hold amateur club 'open' competitions which members of other clubs, or those with proper handicaps can play in? Singles opens, same sex pairs opens, mixed pairs opens, team alliances, junior opens etc?

Most clubs, although not all, in the UK hold these kind of events and they're very popular. Not only do they provide additional accessability, but the entry fees are normally cheaper than standard greenfees, the courses tend to be preped-up a bit and you might even win a prize. Some clubs even have Golf Weeks with different types of open comp held on each day.

All the best

I can only speak for my little corner of the world,but yes,all the privates host competitions open to other private clubs' members--amateur,mid-amateur,senior,junior,and ladies.

[Brent Hutto]

Like everything in this apples versus artichokes comparsion, no there is no USA private club equivalent to Open Week or Walk-Up Open events at UK clubs. Not talking about inter-club matches but just plain old "Anybody in the world can walk up next Thursday and play in a one-day Open Stableford for 15 quid". Of course at a USA club if such an event existed it would be 15 quid plus 25 more for the required golf cart.  

[David_Tepper]

"Do private clubs in the US hold amateur club 'open' competitions which members of other clubs, or those with proper handicaps can play in? Singles opens, same sex pairs opens, mixed pairs opens, team alliances, junior opens etc?"

Thomas D. -

The simple answer to your question is "no." I have never heard of a private club hosting the kind of "Open Week" that Brent Hutto refers to and I have never heard of a private club hosting any open competitions (for other than scratch golfers) similar to the ones I get to play in Scotland on a regular basis. Even those clubs that do host competitions for scratch golfers do so on a very limited basis, mostly making their courses available for local/sectional qualifying of USGA or state championships.

DT  

 

[Thomas Dai]

I can only speak for my little corner of the world,but yes,all the privates host competitions open to other private clubs' members--amateur,mid-amateur,senior,junior,and ladies.
[/quote]

JME,

That's great news. Out of interest which little corner of the world is your 'corner'?

What about the European nations, Aussie, NZ, SA, Canada, Argentina, Dubai, Russia, Chile and all the various other parts of the globe that folks post in from?

Do private clubs your countries hold amateur club 'open' competitions which members of other clubs, or those with proper handicaps can play in? Singles opens, same sex pairs opens, mixed pairs opens, team alliances, junior opens etc?

Oh, just for clarification, most UK club opens are not walk-up's, some are, but most are not......you mostly have to submit an entry form with payment in advance or book online. The website http://www.golfempire.co.uk/ - is a very good source of tracking down UK open comps although visiting an individual clubs website will also enable you to establish details. Some open comps fill up very quickly, like months ahead, so you have to be prepared to plan in advance.

All the best

[JMEvensky]

JME,

That's great news. Out of interest which little corner of the world is your 'corner'?

Memphis. The Memphis GA is made up of all the private clubs in town.They run 6 tournaments each year--5 of which are only open to members of MGA clubs.Each club generally hosts at least one day of one tournament every couple of years.

Isn't this the same situation as Philadelphia,Met NY,etc.?

[David_Tepper]

JME -

Are these MGA tournaments for scratch golfers only or are there flights for handicap golfers in these events?

DT

[JMEvensky]

JME -

Are these MGA tournaments for scratch golfers only or are there flights for handicap golfers in these events?

DT

They're flighted (usually after the first round),but not net.

The schedule has almost become a 50/50 mix of guys who are in it for the competition and guys in it for the opportunity to play at a club they might not often get to.

I'm betting Memphis is not so unusual in this regard.Fewer competitive players,more social.

[SL_Solow]

In the Chicago District, the CDGA runs over 50 competitions (counting qualifiers) for all levels of competition.  About 2/3 are held at private clubs and we try to get every club to host at least once every 4 years.  Of course there are exceptions.  Tourney's are open to all CDGA members whether they are members at private or public facilities.  Competition for spots can be fierce and are available first come/first served except for those where there are playing requirements e.g. CDGA amateur.  Otherwise, privates are only open to non-members, as a rule, to guests of members or if they are hosting a charity outing.

[Josh Stevens]

I certainly dont know of a club in Aus that doesnt hold some sort of open tournament - the caveat being that these are often limited to single figure golfers.

But with these events, corporate days, interstate visits and other little events etc, a half decent and dedicated member of the public could probably manage to tee it up half a dozen times a year at Royal Melbourne if they tried.  I wonder how many times I could tee it up at Shinnecock?

Not complaining, a private club has perfect right to do as it pleases, but it does help break down that elitism.  BUt then perhaps they dont want to break it down

[Wayne_Kozun]

What about the European nations, Aussie, NZ, SA, Canada, Argentina, Dubai, Russia, Chile and all the various other parts of the globe that folks post in from?

Do private clubs your countries hold amateur club 'open' competitions which members of other clubs, or those with proper handicaps can play in? Singles opens, same sex pairs opens, mixed pairs opens, team alliances, junior opens etc?

Here in Canada we are very similar to the US in terms of access at private clubs, especially in Toronto and Montreal.  The one difference woud be that with about 99% of the clubs you would be able to get on with a phone call from your pro, but that requires being a member at a club somewhere.

In terms of Open competitions these are very rare and are generally top-flight amateur competitions. There are inter club matches, especially for juniors, and club memberships for juniors are relatively inexpensive and are usually available to any junior interested and don't require a relative who is a member of the club.  But tee times for juniors are rather restricted unless the tee is empty.