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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #100 on: October 11, 2013, 11:16:57 PM »
... but ignore the noise and underneath you'll find some of the biggest fans of great greenkeeping anywhere.

Well said ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Ross Harmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #101 on: October 11, 2013, 11:49:07 PM »
My first time checking in on this thread in a few weeks... sad to see it go south for a while...

Anyways, I was out at Ballyneal 10 days ago and can report that the bent looks and plays fantastically! The greens are running a tad faster than usual for this time of year, but it's very playable and - as always - a blast! Dave is very satisfied with the results so far.

Will report back after my next trip there in another week or two... yes, I told some that I was going to stay away for a while, but have determined that's impossible!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2013, 12:11:52 AM »
Thanks Don for a little needed perspective about this particular thread.  

I am remembering back when I took the initiative to attend various GCSAA seminars associated with their annual convention.  From "Scouting Pests" to Water management practices, to restoration and remodeling, to promoting some Spanish language skills for obvious reasons ... all of them had a heavy element of encouragement to the attending supers from all over the country, pointing out the value and need for 'effective communication'.  

Here on this thread, we have a subject that is crying out for effective communication of a particular issue of turf management and best practices, balanced with understanding the marketing of the product to the members, and what will keep the club desirable, retained in its esteem and open and thriving.  It doesn't matter that it is BallyNeal, or Dismal, PC or SHGC.  They all have a process and balance to strike with getting information to the members on what is needed by the staff to maintain the course well.  And, when some misunderstandings occur about technicalities of the science of turf management, effective communication is THE ONLY way to get understanding.  That course I love so much has a super that has kept a very good blog or letter explaining his turf management ideas and practices, as one example of effective-professional communication.

So, as I had mentioned in a previous post, I don't think it is fair to say to members and 'supporters' that they aren't professionals growing grass in those conditions for a living, therefore they don't belong in a discussion where learning can take place, nor other condescending language.  I don't think that it does the superintendent profession any good to have some of their representative figures go off on those perceived as having wrong technical information on a particular aspect of growing and managing the turf.  I do think the way to advance the professional image of supers it to be patient and try to explain controversial issues in as clear for the lay person to understand as possible.  Then, if a party is spoiling for a fight, demeaning a super's honest hard work, and second guessing where no proper experience or knowledge is demonstrated beyond rumor and innuendo, then lambaste that person and do it with authority.  

Other than one incidence of an ancillary personality rift on this thread- not really so much related to the issue of a process of converting turf species on greens and what causes problems in the turf as much as some other personality conflict, I have not scene nor do I recognize any ulterior motive nor malice towards any superintendent in this region.  I think readers and contributors are very grateful and appreciate the information some of our supers and facility owners and managers, and architects have to say.  I think the questions and answers have been excellent.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2013, 12:36:13 AM »
RJ

Im not sure what it is you are hoping for from this thread.

Dave Wilber and Tom Doak who are probably in the most informed position of any participants on this thread so far have spoken regarding the decision and justifications for it. Dave Hensley (whom I dont know) possibly is in the best position to comment but he hasnt done here yet.

Regarding the communication and explanation I would put forward that the only parties this should be of a concern to is the management and members of Ballyneal. I would also imagine that such communications have already taken place and the satisfaction of those involved has been achieved or the conversion would not have already begun. The questions and second guessing of a public chatroom should not even register with them as the slightest concern.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2013, 04:14:22 AM »
Dave Wilber,

thanks for the reply and the explanation. It seems that Dave Hensley inherited problems arising from poor quality control with the seed.
If you want to enlighten people then the 'your all a bunch of ignorant assholes' approach is probably the wrong way to go about it.

Jon

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2013, 11:31:32 AM »
Grant,  why do professional organizations exist such as GCSAA or ASGCA, etc.  And, professional organizations exist in most types of learned vocations where there is a desire to raise the profile and advance the esteem of the workers in that profession; no?

I've been associated with a few professional organizations in my time, including attended GCSAA just for the learning available.  When attending functions, I noted at least two different behavior patterns of members and leaders.  I have been in the leadership of law enforcement professional organizations, and to some extent the same imaging challenges exist in the desire to raise the professional image of superintendents and cops, believe it or not.  The two styles of projection are those that have felt under siege from public criticism and develop the 'us against them' self defense mechanism; and the people that reach out and forward to communicate and explain their contributions, learning, rigors of the job, and share their experiences.  While anecdotal and from merely my own personal observations, I believe those that withdraw to only communicate in the group of like minded self defensive 'us against them' do not get the recognition they desire, and in some respects just roll with that outcome and become insular, but also don't get the sympathetic support of those that pay the bills (be that taxpayers for cops, or members and club administrations for supers).  

If a person wants to demonstrate a desire to learn about issues of turf management challenges and the basis for various agronomic and purchasing decisions, and isn't about to go to a turf science program and work years in the field in order to participate, but is willing to learn the essentials to be conversant and effective in a decision making capacity, or has demonstrated an honest real interest because they are simply a curious type that enjoys learning about various subjects; why in heavens name would you say it is none of your concern and butt out?  Particularly, why butt out if one is supporting the party making important decisions!  Do you really think that raises the professional profile so that the person being condescended will ever support causes in which you do wish to be supported?

On this particular thread, I don't see anyone questioning the ability or motives of those making decisions (including Mr Hensley).  I read a lot of support, and questions honestly wanting to know what issues drives this golf turf challenge in that region and a desire to know the pros and cons.  This issue of balancing a poly -stand of coloonial/fescue vs pure fescue and if there is blending issues would in fact be an excellent topic for presentation at the next GCSAA convention.  What do you think?

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dave_Wilber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2013, 02:06:57 PM »
Alright...one more post.

1. I don't think members of the DG here are a "bunch of ignorant assholes" (thanks Jon, but really?). If I came off that way, it was unintended passion. That's me.

I realize, as Don points out that the discussions here contain people who are dedicated to the Game. Having said that, if you are trying to sell me that ALL the folks here don't have an agenda and don't like a good flame war, I'm not buying. Nor are lots of other industry people. It's a free fire zone here and people who's mortgage payments depend of their greens know to be very careful on GCA. That's just a fact when you are dealing with public opinion where the paparazzi have nothing to lose. I mean really, it took less than an hour for someone to Key up a post about "consultant buck passing". Nice. And anyone who knows me knows the last thing I do is pass the buck.

RJ's heart is in the right place about wanting to learn, but I've seen a lot of industry people try to educate a bit and get bitten pretty hard. It's easy to move on when that happens. And really, I don't think the GCSAA cares much about a bunch of fescueheads on a small number of courses. I'd like to see that change.

2. This whole thing, really is all about Ballyneal and Dave Hensley. Both of whom I love and both who deserve greatness and the highest of opinions. There was no big thing done wrong there. Things happen. Show me a construction site where things go exactly as planned. I've never seen one. That's part of the art of what we do.

3. I want to speak up one more time, as a course ages, it often tells us what to do and Dave, logically is moving with that change.

I remember a story Walter Woods told me about how bad the greens were when he first arrived at St Andrews to take over. They didn't have much money then and there was a lot of public opinion about what to do. Walter, one of the greatest turf minds I have ever met or seen, listened to everyone and did his own thing. He began cultivating low mowed fescue areas around the property and when he liked what he saw he transplanted thousands of plugs onto the greens. Thousands. There was a major uproar in St Andrews. Everyone was sure that he was completely out of his head. An at first, he admitted he began to wonder if they were right, as the very slow growing fescue needed time to knit in. But one of things he didn't tell everyone is that he began this work in the key in positions on the greens, knowing that St Andrews was all about coming competitions and not just the locals and the japanese tourists. And that move, while creating public outcry from every direction (even the R&A'a Agronomist) proved to be the cheapest and most effective way to make the greens at St Andrews the wonders that they are. That practice, I am told, while not as large scale, is still in place.

Point? We all, even myself as a consultant, should recognize when a completely talented individual like Dave Hensley makes a decision, small or large, he's in the perfect viewpoint and skillset to do it. Our Game is damn lucky to have him and what is really sad, is that he wouldn't be here telling us his story instead of staying away because posting here could be a danger.

I'm not about us vs. them. I am, however a realist. The lurk rate on all of this is really high. My phone and email blew up yesterday after my post, with folks that don't post here, but often read. A small thing, blown up, taken out of context, speculated on? That's never good.
---------
Dave Wilber
Wilber Consulting--Coaching, Writing Broadcasting, Agronomy
davewilber@yahoo.com
twitter: @turfgrasszealot
instagram @turfgrasszeal
"No one goes to play the great courses we talk about here because they do a nice bowl of soup. Soup helps, but you can’t putt in it." --Wilber

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2013, 03:55:00 PM »

4. Contamination. Contamination of seed is a very real thing and happens all the time. In the case of BN, a tiny bit of creeping bent probably ended up in the mix because the same equipment at the seed supplier was used to blend other grasses. My instructions to everyone were to blend seed at the site to avoid this, but to the original super (not Dave Hensley) it seemed like too much work and he let the seed company blend the seed for the greens. Around year two that decision proved to be a mistake.


Is the original super around to defend himself? This is textbook consultant buck passing.

Dave,

According to the above it is your opinion that you gave instructions that were not followed by the mysterious first super who is now solely responsible for the failure of your design.  Considering that you have no proof that the company mixing the seed led to the problem I don't know what this could be but buck passing.

How is your position fair to the original super?  

Anyone who has ever hired a consultant can see what you are doing. Who did you tell besides the original super on how best to mix the seed?  Could the architect also be responsible, the owner, you?

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2013, 04:04:55 PM »
I'm not sure if Dave Hensley not posting or enlightening on this thread is out of fear of being taken on context, but rather that he's not a member of GCA and probably has no interest in being one anytime soon. I know that he's perfectly happy explaining the thought process and open to  showing people what's what if you want to invest the time to go see what's going on in Holyoke. Lord knows I've asked him more than my fair share of dumb questions.


Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2013, 04:06:52 PM »

On this particular thread, I don't see anyone questioning the ability or motives of those making decisions (including Mr Hensley).  I read a lot of support, and questions honestly wanting to know what issues drives this golf turf challenge in that region and a desire to know the pros and cons.  This issue of balancing a poly -stand of coloonial/fescue vs pure fescue and if there is blending issues would in fact be an excellent topic for presentation at the next GCSAA convention.  What do you think?



RJ

Its great that you have a genuine interest in turf management and you have made efforts to explore it. I am in no way knocking that.

What I am trying to point out is that the justification for the decisions being made at Ballyneal are really only known to them. The reasons for the change could be numerous and only those within that immediate group are really able to offer anything concrete on the subject. Anything else being thrown around is pure speculation or guesswork.

No turf manager with any sense is going to come on here and throw out statements saying what went wrong or how things should have been done for that specific situation. There are way too many site specific factors and issues to categorically make any accurate assessments. At best you are going to get some safe generalisations based on peoples own experiences such as Jon Wigget sharing from his  body of work with fescue. At no point though, has he done anything more than refer to his own experience (hopefully I have this right) because he understands that the conditions present at Ballyneal will differ from those he has worked with.

Regarding poly stand vs mono stand, here is a link to a great topic started by Don Mahaffey a while ago (it was part of a cool series and it would be awesome if he started a few more)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51568.0.html

Dave_Wilber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2013, 04:26:59 PM »

4. Contamination. Contamination of seed is a very real thing and happens all the time. In the case of BN, a tiny bit of creeping bent probably ended up in the mix because the same equipment at the seed supplier was used to blend other grasses. My instructions to everyone were to blend seed at the site to avoid this, but to the original super (not Dave Hensley) it seemed like too much work and he let the seed company blend the seed for the greens. Around year two that decision proved to be a mistake.


Is the original super around to defend himself? This is textbook consultant buck passing.

Dave,

According to the above it is your opinion that you gave instructions that were not followed by the mysterious first super who is now solely responsible for the failure of your design.  Considering that you have no proof that the company mixing the seed led to the problem I don't know what this could be but buck passing.

How is your position fair to the original super?  

Anyone who has ever hired a consultant can see what you are doing. Who did you tell besides the original super on how best to mix the seed?  Could the architect also be responsible, the owner, you?

John,

You are so right. I'm to blame.

Call the seed police. And the bad consultant police. Have them cuff me and seize my golf bum assets and my cats and dogs. I'm the ruination of Ballyneal. Please. Really?

Can't imagine what would lead you to say such things based on what I've said. But you are right. Project a total failure due to my inability. How could I be so brash as to not just admit that from the start?

Talk about blowing something out of context. It really isn't really a big deal. You'll just have to deal with what I've offered in your investigative efforts to develop your conspiracy theories, throw gas on ice cubes and build hangman's nooses for consultants and supers. Tie that knot, sir. Helps everyone in it's positive nature.

Now you know why I was reluctant to post here at all. People like you. Sad.

---------
Dave Wilber
Wilber Consulting--Coaching, Writing Broadcasting, Agronomy
davewilber@yahoo.com
twitter: @turfgrasszealot
instagram @turfgrasszeal
"No one goes to play the great courses we talk about here because they do a nice bowl of soup. Soup helps, but you can’t putt in it." --Wilber

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2013, 04:34:20 PM »
Dave,

Very clever, you said it was the original supers fault for not following your directions. I was defending him because he does has the sense not to post here. If he even exists that is.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2013, 04:46:35 PM »
Knock it off John.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2013, 04:57:52 PM »
More intelligence is borne of mistakes than simply being right or guessing right. Anybody who hasn't had to change direction is too risk averse or too stupid, IMHO.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2013, 04:59:49 PM »
Knock it off John.

This is what I get for trying to defend a superintendent. I'm out of my element. Never again.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2013, 06:02:40 PM »
Dave Wilber,

It did come across that way but I know it is difficult to put across intended tone online. There are some here who are just intent on mischief but most are interested in what knowledge others have to offer.

If you read the thread you will notice that some have been pointing out the difference between Browntop Bent and Creeping Bent. However is the creeping bent Agrostis stolonifera or Agrostis palustris?.


My experience is that the problem in a semi arid climate is that the program needed to keep browntop bent alive can be detrimental to Festuca rubra.

Jon

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2013, 11:29:36 AM »
I agree with Grant Saunders, that you won't get many greenkeepers posting on this topic because outside of the Ballyneal team there is no one esle with a clue. The decisions are site specific, notwithstanding Jon Wigget's catergorical declaration, "Fescue is good at any project...".

I also agree with John Kavanuagh, Dave Wilber did throw the first super under the bus with the statement, "My instructions to everyone were to blend seed at the site to avoid this, but to the original super (not Dave Hensley) it seemed like too much work and he let the seed company blend the seed for the greens. Around year two that decision proved to be a mistake."

Probably not Dave's intention, but that's sure how it reads - the guy was lazy and short-sighted, hence the ensuing problems. And just to prove I'm a pedantic curmudgeon, a technicality: a combination of seed from two different species of grass, as in this case with Agrositis and Festuca, is known as a "mix". To be a "blend", it must be some combination of varieties of the same species.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2013, 03:27:08 PM »
The decisions are site specific, notwithstanding Jon Wigget's catergorical declaration, "Fescue is good at any project...".


Steve,

now I hope you can produce the my post where you claim this quote because I am calling you a liar if you don't and we both know I never posted it.

Jon

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2013, 03:59:48 PM »
Been offline for  couple of days so have just skim read the new postings.

Chris,

Fescue will cope with 60 to 100 degree heat in an arid climate just fine and I know this from personnel experience. You do need enough rootzone depth and accept that it will go straw coloured but it will play just fine. In drought situations fescue will stop leaf growth and concentrate on root growth so in hot months you might only need to mow every second or third day. Rolling will help maintain the speed and stimping at 10+ cutting at 6.5mm is no problem.

Some people say that fescue is okay at a low budget project but this is wrong! Fescue is good at any project if that is what you want and it is cheaper than most grasses to maintain.

Jon

Jon,

It was in your reply #77.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2013, 04:55:21 PM »
Stephen,

What I said was "Some people say that fescue is okay at a low budget project but this is wrong! Fescue is good at any project if that is what you want and it is cheaper than most grasses to maintain. ".

You only used a part of a sentence and presented it out of context. I do not know why you would do such a thing and it is a pretty cheap thing to do.

You say

a combination of seed from two different species of grass, as in this case with Agrositis and Festuca, is known as a "mix". To be a "blend", it must be some combination of varieties of the same species.

The important words in your sentences are known as   & To be    the important words in Dave Wilber's post is to blend



To blend - To combine or mix so that the constituent parts are indistinguishable from one another

You have taken some fairly low shots at others here but have not made any constructive contributions whilst doing it.

Jon

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2013, 05:28:45 PM »
Jon,

With all due respect it wasn't out of context. You stated that fescue is good for any project, regardless of budget, and you did not qualify that assertion in any other way. If quoting people is a "cheap thing", then I am guilty as charged.

As for the seed mix/blend, I beg to differ that in fact I was making a constructive contribution in that I was attempting in my own small way to inform the DG of indsutry terminology. Not only in turfgrass, but across agriculture there is a recognized difference between a seed blend and a seed mixture. As I stated above, a blend consists of varieties of the same species and a mix is made up of different species. You cannot blend fescue and bentgrass seeds, you can only mix them.

A quick search turned up the following definition from the state of Ohio Law website:

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/907.01

(M) "Mixture" means seed consisting of more than one kind, each of which is present in excess of five per cent of the whole.

GG) "Blend" means seed that consists of more than one variety of a kind, with each variety representing more than five per cent by weight of the whole.
[/i]


Further, this snippet is from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency:

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/plants/seeds/industry-advisories/seed-mixtures/eng/1364175624883/1364175656245#a1a

A seed mixture is defined as a mixture of two or more crop kinds or species. This is distinguished from a varietal blend which is defined as containing two or more varieties of a single crop kind or species in the blend.


I'm sure I could find a multitude of like definitions, but why argue facts? It is an international standard. If my feeble effort to enlighten the forum on industry terminology is a 'low shot" then so be it.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2013, 06:14:27 PM »
Steve,

once again a misquote. I did not state "fescue is good for any project, regardless of budget" but rather Fescue is good at any project if that is what you want

Blend/mix of seed was not what Dave Wilber said. He said to blend the seed.


« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 03:39:32 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Dane Hawker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2013, 06:24:03 PM »
Wow some of these arguments are so pointless. Why not pick up a phone and do it in private?
Really disappointing how far downhill this topic has gone.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #123 on: October 14, 2013, 01:22:46 AM »
Wow some of these arguments are so pointless. Why not pick up a phone and do it in private?
Really disappointing how far downhill this topic has gone.

I disagree. I think that definitions are the key to language and communications, and an argument concenring them is entirely relevant to the topic. If we don't agree on the meaning of words, then there can be no effective exchange of ideas or information, and society will collapse.

If you'd like to discuss this further, you can call me at 33 139 222 761 from 08h00-16h00 Paris time.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal gets bent
« Reply #124 on: October 14, 2013, 06:00:26 AM »
This thread is the perfect microcosm of the GCA.com discussion group - some remarkably insightful signal drowned out by too much noise, several personal feuds with varying degrees of topical relevance and animosity, someone defending the indefensible after being called out, John Kavanaugh stirring shit...

Short of a couple of Irishmen arguing about whether they should or shouldn't be protecting their own and an Australian unintentionally offending a foreigner by being too blunt, this thread has absolutely everything! ;D