Ballyneal gets bent

[Jim Colton]

At a GCA dinner a couple weeks ago, somebody approach me and we had the following exchange.

GCAer: "Is it true?"

Me: "What?"

GCAer: "XXX was just out at Ballyneal. He said they are going to bent grass greens! Is it true?"

Me: "Yes, that's what I heard."

Given his surprise, I guess it's worthy enough to note here. I don't think it was meant to be a huge secret or anything.

My understanding is that the fescue wasn't really the problem. The problem was the bent grass in the original mix wasn't playing nice with the fescue, which caused patchy inconsistent greens and the need for varying maintenance practices to keep the bent patches playing fast and the fescue patches alive during the stressful summer conditions. According to GM Matt Payne, some of the greens were already 35% bent grass.

Given most of the negative feedback around Ballyneal is about the speed and consistency of the greens, I imagine these changes will be well received (or the criticism will migrate to the greens being over the top ) I admit that I was initially firmly in the "save Ferris" camp, but am optimistic that it will turn out fine. Experiencing fescue fairways and firm bent greens at Kingsley and Dismal Red makes me optimistic that Dave Hensley and team will get it right, allowing the course to play more consistently, yet appropriately fast for more of the summer while still providing the ground game options that we all know and love.

[Chris Johnston]

Great change!

Congrats Ballynealers!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jim,
when will the transfer be complete?

[Michael George]

Jim:

I am really excited for Ballyneal.  With Dismal and Sand Hills having bentgrass greens, I am sure Ballyneal will get it right.   Going to make a crazy fun course even more fun.

One question - will the maintenance crew have to do some modest re-shaping of some greens to limit the slope angles.  For instance, #12 with bent greens seems scary!  Also, will balls coming off the slope on #7 stay on the green?

 

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim,

firstly it depends on what 35% represents. Secondly what type of bent was used Agrostis tenuis is a good bed fellow with Fescue but Agrostis palustris is a definite no no.

Fescue will give you both a great putting surface and a fast on too but it will not give you the colour many expect at the same time.

Jon

[Jim Colton]

We've exhausted my knowledge of agronomy but I can try to get answers from Dave Hensley assuming he's open to it.

Jon, I've heard the term "weedy bent" and "bad bent" to describe the existing 35%.

[Eric Smith]

Awesome news.

[Bill Seitz]

One question - will the maintenance crew have to do some modest re-shaping of some greens to limit the slope angles.  For instance, #12 with bent greens seems scary!  Also, will balls coming off the slope on #7 stay on the green?

 

Is there a reason that bent can't be maintained at speeds slow enough to accommodate Ballyneal's contours?  I'm seriously asking, as I probably know less about grass than Jim.  And not that it matters any, but I'll cop to being the GCAer in Jim's conversation above. 

[Jon Wiggett]

We've exhausted my knowledge of agronomy but I can try to get answers from Dave Hensley assuming he's open to it.

Jon, I've heard the term "weedy bent" and "bad bent" to describe the existing 35%.

Jim,

just to be clear, my post is not meant to be a comment on the maintenance.

Jon

[John Kavanaugh]

As has been asked when this type of change occurs at other courses...Is Doak being sued for negligence?  Maybe this project will finally put to end all the hand wringing that occurs on this site when common sense changes are made from an original design.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Has any archtiect of golf courses ever been sued for negligence?
Dont really see the need for the reference, am I missing something? or is this just another attempt to bait!

[John Kavanaugh]

Has any archtiect of golf courses ever been sued for negligence?
Dont really see the need for the reference, am I missing something? or is this just another attempt to bait!

Here is a lengthy thread started by Doak himself where several people toss around the term negligence with ease.  I personally welcome courses that make changes to improve playing conditions. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51120.0.html

[Stephen Davis]

Jim,

I felt pretty much the same way as you did when I first heard this. But the more I have mulled it over and spoke with others about it the more I feel like this is going to be a really good thing for the club. I have total confidence in Dave Hensley and his ability to give us some really great playing conditions.

[John Kirk]

Jim,

I was under the impression that native bentgrasses, not the planted Colonial bentgrass, were the difficult grasses to manage.

[Jerry Kluger]

i was recently at Sand Hills and there is definitely a large infestation of Poa in the greens.  There were crews working in the fairways trying to remove bent grass from the fairways but there has been no evidence of any attempt to remove the Poa from the greens.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Thanks JK...

[John Kirk]

I doubt Ballyneal management has any intention of softening the green slopes to accommodate the changing grass mixture.  I have played Ballyneal's greens at Stimpmeter speeds between about 5 and 11 feet, and they have always been fine.  It should be easy for Dave Hensley to maintain the greens at 9-10 feet, which will also be fine.

[Keith OHalloran]

Disclaimer, I do not know anything about agronomy, these are actual questions.
1. Could anything have been done to keep the bent out, or I guess get the bent out of the greens?

2. If the crew at Ballyneal could not keep it from getting to the point that the greens needed to be re done, is it practical for any course in the Sand Hills to have fescue greens?

3. Where in the US are  courses with fescue greens that work?

Thanks

[Tom_Doak]

Disclaimer, I do not know anything about agronomy, these are actual questions.
1. Could anything have been done to keep the bent out, or I guess get the bent out of the greens?

2. If the crew at Ballyneal could not keep it from getting to the point that the greens needed to be re done, is it practical for any course in the Sand Hills to have fescue greens?

3. Where in the US are  courses with fescue greens that work?

Keith:

Thanks for your questions.  Seems like as good a place as any for me to weigh in, although maybe I should check with my lawyer first

1.  There was a little bentgrass in Dave Wilber's specs for the greens at Ballyneal right from the start.  I don't know if that's what is taking over.  I do know that at High Pointe, we had the same issue ... the bentgrass population became seen as a "weed", and there was little you could do to get the fescue to out-compete it.  So, eventually, you have to let the bent take over.

Note that this is the same dance that usually happens between bentgrass and poa annua -- you start out with all bent, but the poa keeps intruding, and eventually the superintendent starts managing as much for the poa as the bent.  Starting with fescue has kept poa out of the equation for 8 years.  That's not negligence!

Whoops!  I've got an appointment, I'll have to finish later.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Ok, I should probably save my question for Dan Lucas this weekend to save myself the embarrassment, but I will ask this question anyway for the good of the GCA-board and anyone else who may be afraid of asking...

If bent can "out-compete" fescue over time, then at a club like Kingsley that has fescue fairways and bent greens - does that mean the bent can grow "out" from the greens and begin to takeover the fringe, aprons, and surrounds?

By the way, lots of great topics this afternoon...

[Andrew Buck]

Ok, I should probably save my question for Dan Lucas this weekend to save myself the embarrassment, but I will ask this question anyway for the good of the GCA-board and anyone else who may be afraid of asking...

If bent can "out-compete" fescue over time, then at a club like Kingsley that has fescue fairways and bent greens - does that mean the bent can grow "out" from the greens and begin to takeover the fringe, aprons, and surrounds?

By the way, lots of great topics this afternoon...

While I probably should wait for a professional to answer, it is my understanding that lower the grass height, the stronger the bent grass (and poa annua) in relation to other grasses. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Chris,

it is not as straight forward as you seem to think. Bent can out perform fescue and fescue can outperform bent it depends on what strains, maintenance used and climate. Fescue and brown top bent will co-inhabit a sward quite happily. The impression I get however is that the biggest problem is a lack of knowledge on how to maintain fescue greens.

Jon

[JESII]

It's interesting to me because I've long suspected the best way to develop a great golf course is over time. The owner should view their investment that way and the architect should view their revenue that way.

How old is Ballyneal?

Whose idea was the bent included in the mix?

What are the real maintenance differences between fescue and bent in the region? Moisture, height of cut, grain?

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Chris,

it is not as straight forward as you seem to think. Bent can out perform fescue and fescue can outperform bent it depends on what strains, maintenance used and climate. Fescue and brown top bent will co-inhabit a sward quite happily. The impression I get however is that the biggest problem is a lack of knowledge on how to maintain fescue greens.

Jon

Jon,

I was reacting to Tom Doak's comments on the previous thread about bent and fescue...

...the bentgrass population became seen as a "weed", and there was little you could do to get the fescue to out-compete it.  So, eventually, you have to let the bent take over...

I didn't really have an opinion on grasses "competing" prior to that, but after reading what Tom wrote and reflecting on my own weed problems in my lawn - it makes a lot of sense...

Chris.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I expect a seamless transition, great playability and no surface disruption.
Doubt anyone will even be talking about this by this time next year.