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Peter Pallotta

Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #225 on: September 26, 2013, 01:33:55 PM »
The best thing about this thread is the reminder that we no longer have to listen to Shivas croon incessantly about Rock Creek.

Funny -- I was thinking what this thread exactly needs is Shivas weighing in on Rock Creek. May he RIP.

Dave got booted?

Worse. It's like he never existed. Do a search.

The same thing happened to Moses, remember, in the Ten Commandments -- when Yul Brynner-Ramesses II finds out he's the son of Hebrew slaves and banishes him from Egypt, and they're taking Chuck Heston out in chains, and he says:  Let the name of Moses be stricken from every book and tablet...(da da dum) stricken from every monument and obelisk (da da dum), striken from every memory and thoughts of men. Let the name of Moses never be spoken of in Egypt again.....So let it be written, so let it be done!

Which is to say, Shivas is in pretty good company -- you know, Chuck Heston and all; and I bet you'll only change his mind about Rock Creek when you pry it from his cold, dead hands....


Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #226 on: September 26, 2013, 01:42:26 PM »
Barnbougle Dunes
Old MacDonald
Pacific Dunes
Streamsong Blue
Cape Kidnappers
Stone Eagle
Stonewall Old
Stonewall North

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #227 on: September 26, 2013, 02:18:03 PM »
The best thing about this thread is the reminder that we no longer have to listen to Shivas croon incessantly about Rock Creek.

Funny -- I was thinking what this thread exactly needs is Shivas weighing in on Rock Creek. May he RIP.

Dave got booted?

Worse. It's like he never existed. Do a search.

The same thing happened to Moses, remember, in the Ten Commandments -- when Yul Brynner-Ramesses II finds out he's the son of Hebrew slaves and banishes him from Egypt, and they're taking Chuck Heston out in chains, and he says:  Let the name of Moses be stricken from every book and tablet...(da da dum) stricken from every monument and obelisk (da da dum), striken from every memory and thoughts of men. Let the name of Moses never be spoken of in Egypt again.....So let it be written, so let it be done!

Which is to say, Shivas is in pretty good company -- you know, Chuck Heston and all; and I bet you'll only change his mind about Rock Creek when you pry it from his cold, dead hands....



I just hope he was booted and not "disappeared," like Dunbar in Catch-22...........
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #228 on: September 26, 2013, 02:29:22 PM »
I just hope he was booted and not "disappeared," like Dunbar in Catch-22...........

I'm thinking he's more like one of those soap-opera characters who walk out of a scene, never to appear again.

Gone, but not forgotten.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #229 on: September 26, 2013, 03:30:33 PM »
Tom:

If you are struggling to answer clients who ask where a course  designed by you will rank, I would propose:  "I guarantee that I will give this project all of my time and attention and it will be the best possible result that I can accomplish.  Can someone else do better, I don't know, but it will be the best that I can do.  If that is not good enough, then you should hire someone else."  You have highly rated courses so your best obviously is pretty good.  

Honestly, I feel bad for the "lesser known" architects whose courses are not ranked.  While I agree with your assessment toward a bias to older, revered clubs, the same applies to named architects versus not named architects.

Re: my rankings, I have Pacific Dunes as my favorite design.  I liked:  it is beautiful, it is a great walk, it has the requisite post card holes (4, 10, 11, 13 and 17) but it also has great inland holes (especially 6-8 and 17-18), it has a lot of variety with the short par 3 (11 and 14) and longer par 3 (5, 10 and 17), short par 4s (1, 6, 16) and long par 4s (2, 4, 7 and 13) and reachable par 5 (12 and 15 depending on the wind) and 3 shot par 5s (3 and 18) and a variety of green complexes (with raised greens such as 3, 6, 13 and 16 and  greens that hug the ground more at 4, 8, 10 and 12); it continually changes the directions of holes for purposes of the wind) .

I have Old Macdonald as my second favorite. I liked:  its beauty (I think 15 tee is the prettiest place on Bandon property); it is great fun with more fun shots and more memorable moments than any other round of golf (I will always remember walking on top of the dune on 3, hitting the approach on 7, walking around the alp on 16 and hitting my approach on 18); it uses the ground game more than any course I have played; great start and great finish (I absolutely love 1-8 and 13-18); great greens (those greens are just a lot of fun to play).

I have Ballyneal as my third favorite.  I liked:  its beauty (I know I keep listing it, but it matters); the boldness of the greens (they are bold and as a result, a lot of fun to play); the variety of the par 3s (each one is very unique, at different distances and requiring different shots - the back tee on #11 is the most underrated shot on the course); the uniqueness of certain shots (like the passage through the dunes on 16 and certainly the entire 7th hole); the routing (I think it is the best routing of yours that I have played - you never really know where you are on the property and in context of other holes and the holes all play in different directions).  

Just the opinion of a retail golfer not in the business.  Thanks for your participation on the site.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 11:58:25 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Greg Gilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #230 on: September 26, 2013, 04:28:07 PM »
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Ballyneal
St Andrews Beach
Rennaissance (before)
Legends Heathland

Paul Perrella

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #231 on: September 26, 2013, 07:28:00 PM »
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Rock Creek
Streamsong
Sebonack
Old Mac.
Beechtree
Apache Stronghold
High Pointe
Heathland

btw, I just played Rock Creek last week and it is a great addition to your list.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #232 on: September 26, 2013, 09:00:42 PM »
The most telling thing about this thread is what most people haven't done, or at least haven't shared -- how they made their decisions.

Tom Doak:

I'm pretty sure you didn't ask for that in your opening post.  I believe people were trying to help you out and answer your question as posed.


Here's your words from your first post...

I thought I would reach out here to see how you think my courses rate against each other.  To vote, all you have to do is list the courses of mine that you've played, in order of merit, according to your own judgment. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #233 on: September 26, 2013, 10:58:15 PM »
1 (a) Balllyneal - Arriving at the 4th tee is a peak experience (literally and figuratively). Also love 7 and 8 and the overall flow of the round
1(b) Old Mac - Love the greens. #7 and #14 are my favorite holes
1 (c) Pacific Dunes - The Ocean holes are my favorites but ranked it third because I took the ocean out of the equation as being an unfair advantage.
I love those three courses.Then there's a gap
4 Atlantic City
Then another gap
5 Heathland
6 Common Ground (despite better greens than Heathland)
7 Beechtree

Can't wait to play Streamsong. I'm hoping my favorite three will be a favorite four.


Steve Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #234 on: September 26, 2013, 11:09:03 PM »
Tom,

I became a Doak fan when based upon your Confidential Guide I played The Addington.  That experience led me to believe your sense of design played to my favorites and it was well before I set foot on one of your designs.  I have played five of your courses and besides the design my opinion is shaped by the overall experience; who I was with, how I played and how badly I wish I could play there again.  My ratings are:

Pacific Dunes
Ballyneal
Old MacDonald
Quail Crossing
The Legends Heathland

The top three are easily on my list of special places, not to be missed and hard to say one is better than the other.

Thanks for the post as it has added to my list of places to see and play.  

Had the chance to play Barrington Hills recently and they are very proud of the work you did there.  
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
Bertrand Russell

Chris Shaida

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #235 on: September 26, 2013, 11:33:28 PM »
I'm with Eric Smith in saying I'm not a rater and not really qualified to evaluate golf holes separate from either my take on how they fit not only with each other but into the surrounds --even the surrounds well beyond what could ever be in 'play' -- or on my experience and memory of my experience.  And I'm also with Mac in cleaving to the original instructions of listing in order.  With that said:

Dismal
Stone Eagle
Pacific Dunes
Stonewall (old)
Streamsong
Rock Creek
Renaissance (original BUT did get to walk the new holes)
Ballyneal
Sebonac

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #236 on: September 30, 2013, 03:01:38 AM »
1. Pacific Dunes - barely gets the nod over Ballyneal, with aesthetics breaking the tie. Maybe my single favorite round of golf I have ever played: I played well (for me), breezy but not enough wind to make the course too difficult (and not nearly as difficult as either of my rounds at Bandon were), sunny skies and perfect temps. So that memory may skew my views. That said, Pac Dunes has it all for me: quirk, variety, playability, strategy and the right amount of challenge.

2. Ballyneal - #7 may be my favorite golf hole anywhere. I can't remember which hole, but I distinctly remember having a short shot into a green where I could have taken any one of four routes to get to the pin (low, pitch it past and use the slope behind, or use the slopes to the left or right). How many courses have options like this?

3. Streamsong Blue - Ballyneal and Pac Dunes are neck and neck, Streamsong is by itself in the middle. Favorite 3-hole stretch was 5-7. I don't know if enough commentary has been written about that stretch of short holes, how unusual it is and how great. I think #6 has one of the more interesting approach shots, as a problem to solve that changes with the conditions and pin.

4. Common Ground - so walkable and pleasant, I don't remember too many details except the use of mounds and bunkers and placement of green sites created a lot of interesting angles.

5. Beechtree - last place on this list, but still a very fine course, sorely missed in the MId-Atlantic. So different from the courses nearby, great use of the topography. I remember some intriguing angles and different green shapes/sizes than you see in the surrounding area.

Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #237 on: October 03, 2013, 04:03:04 PM »
The most telling thing about this thread is what most people haven't done, or at least haven't shared -- how they made their decisions.  Not many have openly compared one course to another much; they just have a snap judgment about where they rank.  And that's how nearly all the rankings are done.  One of the young men who worked on Streamsong told me he tried to do the hole-by-hole match play comparison between it and Dismal River, which he'd just played, and that Streamsong came out slightly ahead, even though he'd ranked Dismal a bit higher by his snap judgment ... and he's the only guy in nearly 200 posts to have made such an in-depth comparison of any two courses.  In fact, even I had forgotten to try and think about it that way, as I would for other people's courses.

I'm curious what Tom or others here consider the best way to compare two courses hole-by-hole, match play style (which appears Tom considers the best way to do so above).

Do you rank each course's holes as best to worst 1-18 and then see who wins more matchups (best hole vs best hole, worst hole vs worst hole, etc)?

Do you match them up straight through their hole numbers (Hole #1 vs Hole #1, Hole #2 vs. Hole #2, etc.)?

Do you match up the pars so Course A's 1st Par-4 vs Course B's 1st Par-4 (which doesn't always match up depending on the mix of pars on each course)?

 
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 04:08:26 PM by Patrick Hodgdon »
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #238 on: October 03, 2013, 07:37:10 PM »
The most telling thing about this thread is what most people haven't done, or at least haven't shared -- how they made their decisions.  Not many have openly compared one course to another much; they just have a snap judgment about where they rank.  And that's how nearly all the rankings are done.  One of the young men who worked on Streamsong told me he tried to do the hole-by-hole match play comparison between it and Dismal River, which he'd just played, and that Streamsong came out slightly ahead, even though he'd ranked Dismal a bit higher by his snap judgment ... and he's the only guy in nearly 200 posts to have made such an in-depth comparison of any two courses.  In fact, even I had forgotten to try and think about it that way, as I would for other people's courses.

I'm curious what Tom or others here consider the best way to compare two courses hole-by-hole, match play style (which appears Tom considers the best way to do so above).

Do you rank each course's holes as best to worst 1-18 and then see who wins more matchups (best hole vs best hole, worst hole vs worst hole, etc)?

Do you match them up straight through their hole numbers (Hole #1 vs Hole #1, Hole #2 vs. Hole #2, etc.)?

Do you match up the pars so Course A's 1st Par-4 vs Course B's 1st Par-4 (which doesn't always match up depending on the mix of pars on each course)?

There is no right way to do it.

The easiest way is to match them up by hole numbers, but I think that causes a lot of difficult comparisons, as we're seeing on the Dismal v Ballyneal thread.  It seems that this group has a bias to score a short par-4 higher than a long par-4; others would do it the opposite way around.

Ideally, you'd like to avoid such biases as much as possible, so probably the best way would be to compare the holes from shortest to longest.  That way you are comparing apples to apples for the most part.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #239 on: October 03, 2013, 08:41:02 PM »
How does matching length of holes reflect the quality of the whole course? Theres too many other intangibles in identifying the better golf course. Aren't there?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #240 on: October 03, 2013, 09:38:59 PM »
How does matching length of holes reflect the quality of the whole course? Theres too many other intangibles in identifying the better golf course. Aren't there?

Sure there are.  But oftentimes those intangibles are allowed to completely trump the hole-by-hole quality of the other course in the comparison.  Comparing hole by hole is a good reality check, especially when you're having a hard time justifying your choice of one course over another.

It is funny how this got started, by the way.  Years ago Ran and I were arguing the merits of two courses back and forth by email, and at one point I said course A "would beat [course B] 5 & 3 in a match of cards."  I hadn't actually done a hole by hole comparison; I just meant that in my eyes it was a rout.  But Ran took it literally, and next thing I knew, we were starting to match up courses one hole at a time.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #241 on: October 03, 2013, 09:43:15 PM »
I rated these in order of how each course stirs my "golfing soul" and in a close call I went head to head in a hole by hole match. Seemed like a reasonable a criteria . . .

- Ballyneal - A brilliant walk in an ideal golf setting. Great mix of holes, tons of opportunity for creativity and the course flows wonderfully across the land. One of the best "paced" courses I have ever played. I would agree that the bent greens are going to make it better and more "universally" enjoyed.

- Pacific - Obviously a great course in an all world setting, but I walk off 13 G and want to walk back onto the 3 T because all my fav holes live in that stretch.

- DR Red - Only played 2 rounds and the back 10 are still growing in so I have not truly experienced it. I love the scale, the greens are wonderfully natural, it's really fun to play and provides numerous strategic options on most holes. While 17 and 18 are epic, I do wish the round ended closer to 1T just to complete the "loop" (19th hole back to the cart parking lot? :)

- Old Mac - Especially enjoy the opening 8 and final 6. A fun, unique, creative and massive golf experience.

- Streamsong Blue - Only played 1 round which I enjoyed, but it doesn't resonate with my like the 4 above. For Florida - Both courses are "wow".

- Stone Eagle - Only played 2 rounds. I really liked it but wish SE played more F&F (which I know members don't want). Tough walk, beautiful setting, fun course.

- CommonGround - Absolutely brilliant for a "muni". I wish every city had a CG along with a Solich'esque Caddie Program. If this was my local I'd be stoked.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #242 on: October 04, 2013, 12:20:13 PM »
Rob - the 19th hole at Dismal Red would be an awesome idea.  Kind of like Dismal's Sheep Ranch.  

One hole that plays down to 1 tee and 1 hole that plays back to the clubhose.  Practice hole to get down to the 1st tee.  Settling bets hole after the 18th hole.  They could share a fairway due to the minimal play.  A par 10 on the way down and a par 8 on the way up.

That would be unique and cool as can be.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 12:23:25 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #243 on: October 04, 2013, 01:54:02 PM »
1. Pacific Dunes
2. Old MacDonald
3. Streamsong Blue

Honestly, I could jumble this ranking after a few more plays, but I've only played each one once.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #244 on: October 04, 2013, 02:46:49 PM »
Rob - the 19th hole at Dismal Red would be an awesome idea.  Kind of like Dismal's Sheep Ranch.  

One hole that plays down to 1 tee and 1 hole that plays back to the clubhose.  Practice hole to get down to the 1st tee.  Settling bets hole after the 18th hole.  They could share a fairway due to the minimal play.  A par 10 on the way down and a par 8 on the way up.

That would be unique and cool as can be.

I did originally plan a short par-4 coming up the hill from #18 to the road.  But, it would be very steep up the hill, and a real anticlimax after the 18th.

Anyway, we barely had enough money or enough time to get 18 holes built last year, so it was never a real consideration.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #245 on: October 04, 2013, 10:41:00 PM »

- Stone Eagle - ... I really liked it but wish SE played more F&F (which I know members don't want)...

Rob,

Really?  Seems like you are making a generalization based on minute data.  I certainly don't want the ball to plug in the fairways.  Over the years, Stone Eagle never plays "firm and fast", but sometimes the course plays pretty firm, with some roll, and very fast greens.  You can bound a fairway wood the last 10-30 yards onto the 13th green on good days.  Last year the course played too soft, and there is an ongoing discussion about conditioning, as is the case at any golf club.  We have a group of member/owners, one of whom plays an outsized role in golf course issues.  Maybe you know him, and know he wants it that way.  Otherwise, your comment seems like an overreach.
  

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #246 on: October 05, 2013, 05:17:54 AM »
I too would second John's opinion.

 Having played Stone Eagle a few times, I've found it played reasonably firm, especially when compared to the playability of it's nearby peers. Only the Stadium Course at PGA West on a very windy mid-season day has ever felt considerably "fast & firm" by definition. Otherwise decent courses close by like the Quarry and Madison Clubs have never felt or played anywhere near fast and firm on my visits.

 One of the problems that is endemic to Stone Eagle is the elevation switches. Many holes and shots there start out downhill then move rather dramatically or vice versa. That feature alone might serve to dampen prototypical roll out from fast and firm. Nary a single hole has much, if any, flattish or valley floor stance. Grasses used there (not easy to keep playable with those dramatic heat ranges) might also help preclude such ideal conditions. Early AZ prevents me from remembering exactly just what they were.....maybe John or Tom can weigh in. Though not a Ballyneal or Pac Dunes, I've never felt as if Stone Eagle played "soft."

 I rather like Stone Eagle, but feel it is necessary to view it in it's proper context. It's a high desert course on a rather extreme property that turned out quite excellent for such climate and terrain. It really shouldn't be measured against other Doak efforts for none share those constraints. When viewed directly against it's peers, it more than shines and is blessed by having a rather laid-back and "chilled" style culture of a club....not as readily found nearby.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #247 on: October 05, 2013, 10:32:05 AM »

- Stone Eagle - ... I really liked it but wish SE played more F&F (which I know members don't want)...

Rob,

Really?  Seems like you are making a generalization based on minute data.  I certainly don't want the ball to plug in the fairways.  Over the years, Stone Eagle never plays "firm and fast", but sometimes the course plays pretty firm, with some roll, and very fast greens.  You can bound a fairway wood the last 10-30 yards onto the 13th green on good days.  Last year the course played too soft, and there is an ongoing discussion about conditioning, as is the case at any golf club.  We have a group of member/owners, one of whom plays an outsized role in golf course issues.  Maybe you know him, and know he wants it that way.  Otherwise, your comment seems like an overreach.
  

I was told that people calling the shots wanted it very green which will prevent it from ever becoming truly firm and fast. I was also informed that "most" of the membership want it "green" which isn't surprising given that is how 99.9% of courses in the US are conditioned. If that is not the case then the peeps I spoke with are mistaken and that is good to know, because SE is a fun course but would be even more fun if the ball could do its thing.

Steve raises some good points about Stone Eagle. It is a super unique course on a pretty extreme site - My understanding is that it is very different than neighboring courses. But the task is to rate all of the Doak courses one has played against the others which is why SE for me is where it is - and same with CommonGround for that matter.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 10:37:33 AM by Rob Rigg »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #248 on: October 05, 2013, 10:51:30 AM »
The winter grass is kept very green, and I wouldn't be surprised if the new owners had their own ideas about how things should be done.  The last two winters have been quite different for conditions.  Last winter the course was wetter and the greens were slower, meaning in the 10-10.5 feet range.  The year before that, the greens were the fastest they have ever been.  As you might imagine, the membership is older and well-heeled.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #249 on: October 05, 2013, 11:31:20 AM »
1. Pacific (location, location, location)
2. Old Mac (templates, location, location)
3. Dismal (sand hills, nice walk ala Old Mac, natural beauty)
4. Ballyneal (great walk, wild greens, can I join?)
5. SS Blue (reclamation, shared site with C&C, is this Florida?)

would love to have seen Frank Lloyd Wright do a rank my homes thread even though it falls a bit into the shameless self promotion category
It's all about the golf!

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