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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #125 on: September 24, 2013, 08:13:16 PM »
Sebonack
Ballyneal
Lost Dunes
Stonewall old
Streamsong Blue
High Pointe
Legends
Beachtree


Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Andy Troeger

Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #126 on: September 24, 2013, 08:14:46 PM »
1. Pacific Dunes
2. Rock Creek
3. Lost Dunes
4. Stone Eagle
5. Ballyneal
6. Old MacDonald
7. The Rawls Course
8. CommonGround
9. Apache Stronghold (would be #7 in better condition)
10. Charlotte Golf Links

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #127 on: September 24, 2013, 08:27:21 PM »
1.Barnbougle Dunes
2.Old Macdonald
3.Rock Creek Cattle Company
4.Pacific Dunes
5.Sebonack
6.St Andrews Beach
7.Stone Eagle
8.Lost Dunes

I have SAB listed as #6 and yet I think about that course a lot and remember how much fun I had playing it.  RCCC is listed #3 has some of the best par 4s I've ever played with holes 7 and 11 as good as anything on this list.

Barnbougle Dunes is just flat out amazing and I love the fact that it's not heavily bunkered around the greens.  There's so many different ways to recover.  The only drawback of the course is that you have to keep your head on a swivel because of the snakes!

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #128 on: September 24, 2013, 08:41:16 PM »
I will give you my idea of which courses are the most fun to play:

Ballyneal
Old MacDonald
Pacific Dunes
Streamsong Blue
Dismal River
Sebonack
Stone Eagle

A special mention for CommonGround which to me demonstrates how good a municipal course can be on a boring piece of property

And a special mention for Beechtree which was a lot of fun but no longer exists.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #129 on: September 24, 2013, 09:18:22 PM »
Thanks to all who have participated for taking the time to help me understand the rankings a bit better.

Current results are as follows (counting a couple of ballots mailed to me in private):

.894  Barnbougle Dunes
.863  Pacific Dunes
.802  Ballyneal

.736  Rock Creek
.717  Dismal River
.694  Sebonack
.671  Old Macdonald
.660  Cape Kidnappers

.547  St. Andrews Beach
.522  Streamsong

.490  Atlantic City
.477  High Pointe  (RIP)
.457  Lost Dunes
.447  Stonewall Old
.434  Apache Stronghold
.425  Stonewall New
.419  Stone Eagle
.392  Tumble Creek
.365  Sheep Ranch
.358  Renaissance Club (before) - the only guy to rate it with the new holes gave it 1.000 !
.328  Bay of Dreams  (RIP)

.288  Beechtree  (RIP)
.250  The Rawls Course
.250  Common Ground
.243  Black Forest
.242  Aetna Springs
.218  Riverfront
.210  Legends (Heathland)
.167  Charlotte Golf Links
.126  Quail Crossing


Takeaways, for me:

1.  We've had a hell of a run.  I used to think my top five courses were pretty tough company, and now they're being rearranged.

2.  Nearly everyone who has played Barnbougle has it first or second among my courses [only Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal and Sebonack were ever ranked ahead of it].  That puts it slightly ahead of Pacific and Ballyneal as my best work.  I thought it might be, but haven't played it enough times to feel confident in saying that myself.

3.  Nos. 4 through 8 don't have a whole lot separating them, but I'm happier to see Rock Creek at #4 than at #8.  That is one of my favorite places that I've built.  But so are Stonewall at 14th and Stone Eagle at 17th.

4.  I ought to play the Renaissance Cup at St. Andrews Beach one year so that more people would consider it.



Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #130 on: September 24, 2013, 10:05:59 PM »
If there really are a dozen courses better than Lost Dunes it's pretty damned impressive.  
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 10:15:23 PM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #131 on: September 24, 2013, 11:40:37 PM »
- Pac Dunes
- Old Mac
- Ballyneal
- High Pointe - One of my favorite courses.  RIP
- Sheep Ranch
- Tumble Creek
- Black Forest
- CommonGround
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 12:01:32 AM by Brent Carlson »

Mark Provenzano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #132 on: September 24, 2013, 11:43:15 PM »
Aetna Springs
Common Ground
Common Ground (kids course)

Yes, I need to get out more   :(

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #133 on: September 24, 2013, 11:47:28 PM »
They're all pretty awesome, and good for different reasons but I think the order of the one's I have played are pretty obvious too me.

Barnbougle Dunes*
Pacific Dunes
Old MacDonald*
St Andrews Beach
Stone Eagle

*co-design
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 12:24:44 AM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #134 on: September 25, 2013, 12:49:39 AM »
1. Pacific Dunes
2. Ballyneal
3. Old Macdonald
4. High Pointe
5. Sheep Ranch

For what it is worth, the gap between 3 and 4 for me is way more narrow than the one between 1 and 2.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2013, 02:40:08 AM »
I'm stoked to see St Andrews Beach rated so high in a few well-travelled golfers' lists. It doesn't get credit often for being as good as it is.

If you visit Melbourne and don't take the time to play StAB, you're missing something really special.

Play the top 3-4 on the sandbelt, then get ye to the Mornington Peninsula.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #136 on: September 25, 2013, 02:45:07 AM »
Ballyneal
Barnbougle
Pacific Dunes
St Andrews Beach
Stone Eagle
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #137 on: September 25, 2013, 07:18:15 AM »

19. Tumble Creek-"A" team was in Australia, par 3 8th & 17th holes are the worst in the Doak portfolio


Bill:

My opinion of your opinion went down considerably with this post.  We built Tumble Creek right after the Aussie courses.  Brian Slawnik [who ran the job at St. Andrews Beach] and Brian Schneider [who ran the job at Barnbougle] did the majority of the shaping work, along with Chris Hunt and Chad Grave.  In fact, the one picture I have of all of my associates working on the same job at the same time, was taken at Tumble Creek.

Also, the 8th hole is not a par-3.  :)  You must be thinking of the 7th.  If you don't like the course, fine, but you should get a fact-checker before you post here.

P.S.  You really wanted a tighter routing for a course on 80,000 acres?

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #138 on: September 25, 2013, 07:30:06 AM »
I've only played four, but do have three more on the docket for this year, so maybe I should reserve judgment, but here's my rating thus far:

Ballyneal
Lost Dunes
Black Forest
Rawls Course

Unfortunatley I never had the chance to play High Pointe before it closed, but those I know that have played it, ranked it among their absolute favorites in northern MI and I'm sure it would rate highly overall.  Any chance we'll see it come back??

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #139 on: September 25, 2013, 08:16:09 AM »
Tom - now that you have the list what course(s) did you think would go higher? And which did you think would go lower? And which of your top 15 or so would someone play and be surprised that it was one of yours? Where did you most step out of your comfort zone to do something different?

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #140 on: September 25, 2013, 09:16:08 AM »
1) Dismal Red
2) Ballyneal
3) Streamsong Blue
4) Renaissance Club (Old)
5) Sebonack

Dismal Red was one of the most interesting courses I have played.  I spent 3 days there not only playing the routing but also fooling around on holes and playing to other holes from different tees, trying out fun shots over and over again.  This place is cool with a capital C-O-O-L.  There is a diversity of greens, dramatic change in elevation, big rolling fairways and a seamless transition between different parts of the property.  If there is a better course built in the next few years I will be beating down the door to play it.

Ballyneal.  WOW!  What a set of greens.  They are best 18 greens of RGD's that I have played.  Great fun and at the right pace for some serious undulation.  8 and 12 greens stand out to me as the most fun. So many great stretches of golf out there.  This course fits the land as well as any; zero jarring experiences.

Streamsong Blue- Unique.  Need I say more?  A dramatic backdrop to some really thought provoking shot selection.  Its also home to the 17th, which may be the best RGD par 5 I have played.  I have a soft spot for a day at Seminole but would wholeheartedly agree that there are hardly any courses that come close to this in Florida.

Someone jokingly mentioned mentioned sibling rivalry and marking down; we are probably talking .001 of a difference between 1 and 3 in my example so I don't really see it as marking down at all.  Its all relative to the sample.

I've probably played Renaissance Club in the old routing more than anyone, other than maybe the owner.  I really liked the flow of the course and in my mind it was underrated before.  I think the new holes elevate the course but have not played them since they have really bedded in, especially the merged hole derived from the old 12 and 13.  I think that hole is one of the keys to whether the new routing truly "works".  There were other options there that I would have like to have played but the result is very good indeed.

Sebonack is an incredible setting.  For me the undulations and speed of the greens could make for a frustrating experience, certainly on a windy day, given the relatively small size of the greens we are used to from RGD.  That said, I revert to my earlier comments that this is all relative to the sample group.  All of mine are kick-ass courses and the difference between them lies in personal preference over hardcore architectural critique.  I really enjoyed my day at Sebonack from start to finish.  The group ranged from a scratch to an 18 and we all thought it was a very special golf course.

I've had near misses at CommonGround and Rock Creek.  From what I've read and heard from people I respect, these along with Barnbougle and Pacific are the highest on my Doak hit list.



« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 09:17:40 AM by Simon Holt »
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #141 on: September 25, 2013, 09:24:37 AM »
P.S.  You really wanted a tighter routing for a course on 80,000 acres?
[/quote]

I chuckled when I saw this comment too. Rock Creek is still the best RGD that I have played and could play there twice a day every day and not get bored.
Mr Hurricane

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #142 on: September 25, 2013, 09:38:35 AM »
Tom - now that you have the list what course(s) did you think would go higher? And which did you think would go lower? And which of your top 15 or so would someone play and be surprised that it was one of yours? Where did you most step out of your comfort zone to do something different?


Tom:  The more votes that come in, the closer the list gets to what I expected.  I'm not surprised Cape Kidnappers is as low as it is [not many people have seen it, so one or two poor votes drag it down], it's one of those places that is so scenic people forget to look for the design interest and just assume it's not there.  

Streamsong is the course I thought would be higher, and maybe Lost Dunes, too.  Stone Eagle is the one that SHOULD be higher, but I'm not surprised at its standing, I know there are a bunch of people who can't forgive that they played it in 110-degree heat, or who want it to be something it's not.  [There is a lot of that in rankings.  It is crazy for raters to have ideas about what a course should be instead of rating it for what it is, but you can see plenty of evidence for that in the posts above.]  

Dismal and Sebonack are both a bit higher than I expected.  Didn't really know what to expect from Dismal since it's so new.  Sebonack has been picked apart by so many people that I'm surprised when somebody likes it.

I don't really try to hide my involvement in a course, so I don't know where people would be surprised -- maybe Sebonack because it's so much harder than what I normally build, but that's what the client wanted.  [He's even tried to make it harder after we left.]  Tumble Creek is one course where we deliberately tried to do a less flashy style of bunkering, because we were sick of doing the same old thing, and look what Bill Schulz made of that choice!   :P  Common Ground is another where we tried to do something in a different style, but that decision was driven more by concerns about the maintenance budget.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #143 on: September 25, 2013, 10:20:21 AM »
Tom,

I wish I had the chance to play the far away courses CK, BD, RC as I hear they are terrific and know it would probably change my list.  I can say that there is some wonderful variety between the courses I've played and that is pretty cool.

I agree with Simon Holt that the exercise was trying to rank some really outstanding courses, and my "margin" between them is thin enough to see through.  

Like Tom, I'm surprised that our Red course is held so high this early.  Especially so given that many (5th Major folks) who played it did so with, maybe, 4 months of growth (and it was pretty rough then) and everyone who has played it did so less than a year since the last seed was placed.  Technically, the Red isn't even open, and the grow-in naturaly gets better by the week.  That's pretty cool and kudos to Tom and the guys who "did and continue to do...it".


Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #144 on: September 25, 2013, 10:32:22 AM »
Notwithstanding Dan Kelly's objections...

Pacific Dunes
Ballyneal
Old Macdonald

Apache Stronghold
Streamsong (Blue)

CommonGround
High Pointe

The spacing above is intentional. The first three are in a league of their own of the seven I've seen. I thought Apache Stronghold and Streamsong (Blue) had a similar "feel." Not sure why that is because they are on very different properties. Apache Stronghold is hard to judge because of its condition but it really is a very good golf course, beautifully routed.   CommonGround and High Pointe are (were) great public courses but had smaller budgets so lack the bells and whistles of the others. Very solid courses though.

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #145 on: September 25, 2013, 10:32:40 AM »
" As near as I can tell, they are doing it by comparing one to another, rather than rating each course on its own merits and then seeing where they fall.  I'm trying to get a better sense of how they do that (and why  etc.."


Tom ,I think this is to be expected I dont really know how anybody can respond to your request without comparing the courses.
At least to me there is no diffrence between comparing the courses to eachother and against eachother, as both ways they are "graded" and then compared.

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #146 on: September 25, 2013, 11:34:47 AM »
Oh to be able to play just one of your courses.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #147 on: September 25, 2013, 12:13:37 PM »
My experience is very limited:
Pacific Dunes .... far and away a life changing experience
Old Mac ... one play is not enough, need to play on a warmer less windy day.  it does not matter if you know nothing of golf history design
Beechtree ... parkland on some mild steroids but wide playing corridors, played 3 rounds 6 weeks prior to closure, very sad
Legends Heathland ... 5+ hour round not to my liking, need a second & third round, a lot going on there design wise
Riverfront .... know it very very well, live 10 minutes from it, played many many many times, a difficult and in some parts a great site, precurser of what was to come.  Trying to get all of you on the east coast to play it.  Mr Kavanaugh made some interesting comments about it on a thread some time back.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #148 on: September 25, 2013, 12:23:22 PM »
Tom--Your comment that people rank courses based on what they wanted it to be is very asute and interesting.  Said another way--I think rankings are often based on expectations.  I know my expectations from what I've heard or read of a course usually influence very much how I feel about a course after I play it.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #149 on: September 25, 2013, 01:27:44 PM »
Tom:

I often hear people say that they can't properly rank a golf course as "it has not matured". 

Which of your courses do you think still need time to "mature" and when do you think they can be properly ranked?

"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

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