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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Rank My Courses
« on: September 24, 2013, 08:34:31 AM »
I must admit that it's getting harder and harder for me to have a sense of how the courses we are building today compare to the ones we've put out there before.  From what I can see, the magazine panelist types are having a hard time of it, too ... it's like I've hit my quota of top 100 courses and they don't know what to do with a new one.

Just for kicks, I thought I would reach out here to see how you think my courses rate against each other.  To vote, all you have to do is list the courses of mine that you've played, in order of merit, according to your own judgment.  [Please use your own judgment, and don't worry about what the rankings say, or what anyone else says.]  You need not try to place them against others' courses or an arbitrary top-100 scale; just ranking them against each other is fine.

I'll compile the results based on the comparative ranking.   For example, if Dismal River was only on two ballots, one where it finished first out of nine courses and another where it finished third out of five, its average vote would be  [(9/9) + (3/5)] / 2 = .800.  You have to have played at least five of my courses for your vote to count.  

P.S.  If you list The Renaissance Club, please note if you played it before or after the new holes were added, I might try to keep track of it separately.

Jim Colton

Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 08:49:22 AM »
Tom,

 We'll show you ours if you show us yours :)

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 08:57:20 AM »
I'll give it a go, Tom, even though my "Doak List" is a small one:

1.  Renaissance*
2.  Pacific Dunes
3.  Old Macdonald

*Only played RC in the old configuration, but had enough of a walking tour of the new holes to believe that they will make enough of a difference to put the course as my favo(u)rite.  Even in the old configuration RC was significantly better to me than North Berwick, and easily the 2nd best course in East Lothian.  With the new holes?  Maybe a serious contender for Muirfield, and very possibly an Open venue once the R&A kicks the HCEG into touch for its unrepentant misogynation......
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 08:58:22 AM »
With "Doak scale" scores.

Barnbougle Dunes 9
Ballyneal 8
St Andrews Beach 7
Renaissance Club (original) 6

I feel as though there's a fifth I've played, but I can't think of it so I guess not.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 08:59:14 AM »
Without much reflection, an instinctual selection....

Barnbougle
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Old Macdonald
Renaissance Club (before alts)
Streamsong Blue

I only saw Dismal in its pre construction, mowed out state, but instinct tells me it'd be pretty high up this (short) list.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 08:59:49 AM »
Conditioning aside:

Pacific Dunes
Apache Stronghold
Barnbougle Dunes
Stoneagle

In my view, these are all pretty close in quality.  I could reverse the order and feel comfortable defending the position.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 08:59:54 AM »
I'm surprised that I have played at least 5 of your courses.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 09:00:17 AM »
Tom,

 We'll show you ours if you show us yours :)


If I could easily rank them myself, then why would I care what anyone else thought?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2013, 09:01:05 AM »
What is the over/under on how many people post on this thread AND follow Tom's directions?  ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 09:04:50 AM »
Ballyneal
Pac Dunes
Barnbougle
Old Mac
Streamsong
Rock Creek
Ren Club before
Stone Eagle
Common Ground
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 11:47:57 AM by Mike Policano »

Jim Colton

Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 09:10:31 AM »
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Old Mac
DR Doak
Streamsong Blue
Sebonack (look at me!)
CommonGround
Legends Heathland

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2013, 09:12:48 AM »
Ballyneal...as much fun as you can have on a golf course
Pacific Dunes..was amazed how close to a true links course it really was
Barnbuogle Dunes
Renaissance Club
Streamsong Blue...love the subtlety of the driving selections
St Andrews Beach
Old Macdonald
Stone Eagle..great use of rather difficult terrain
Bahia Los Suenos..in truth only walked the holes and by then it was looking rather down trod.
Rawls Course



« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 05:52:43 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 09:13:00 AM »
Tom,

Quote
If I could easily rank them myself, then why would I care what anyone else thought?

Wow, that feels like a real "window to the soul" post!

Aren't there countless reasons one might care to know others' opinions on a purely subjective matter?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 09:14:25 AM »
Old Mac
Pac Dunes
Ballyneal
Lost Dunes
Bay of Dreams
Legends Heathland
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 09:25:47 AM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 09:15:35 AM »
Barnbougle
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Sebonack
St Andrews Beach
Streamsong Blue
CommonGround
Beachtree
Legends Heathland
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 10:03:52 AM by Chip Gaskins »

Patrick Glynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 09:15:59 AM »
1. Pacific Dunes
2. Streamsong Blue
3. Ballyneal
4. Renaissance (Before)

A couple of observations - shocked that I only have played 4 Doak Courses, and I would have Pacific and Streamsong a notch ahead of Ballyneal & Renaissance.

Patrick

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2013, 09:18:29 AM »
Tom - I have not played 5 of your courses yet (standing currently at 4), so I don't qualify, but I would rank them (1) Pacific Dunes, (2) Old Macdonald, (3) Ballyneal and (4) Lost Dunes.  I have Pacific Dunes as my clear #1.  I think Ballyneal and Old Macdonald are very close and almost interchangeble at 2/3.  I have Lost Dunes as the clear 4th (mostly due to the land/highway).

However, I do think that your point on rankings not wanting too many courses from 1 designer is accurate.  I don't think it is intentional, I just think raters and magazines don't want to be viewed as being unreasonably biased toward 1 architect.  We all have our favorites and our ratings will reflect that, but if it is a close call, I think it is human nature when making a subjective determination to prefer the different rather than the norm (so you can be viewed as "fair").  Also, I think a lot of raters don't want to be viewed by the editor/panel as "stupid" so they are predisposed to follow the current rankings.  For example, I try my best to "follow my instincts and my evaluation" and not be influenced by the "general consensus", but you open yourself to criticism when you rank a Ballyneal higher than Oakmont or a Kinloch higher than Winged Foot or a Dormie Club higher than #2 (all of which I do). 

I know a lot of people that think the best example of this theory is your course at Rock Creek Cattle Company, which several people have told me is the single most underrated golf course in the US.  I have yet to talk to a person that has played it that does not have it very high on their personal list.   Yet it still is not highly ranked.  Unfortunately, I think it opened right after several of your big successes, was in a remote location and did not receive the "hype" that other places have received.  Accordingly, it got lost.  My guess is that if it received the "hype" that Streamsong/Bandon/Cabot Links received, it would be higher ranked.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2013, 09:19:00 AM »
Ballyneal
Sebonack
Pacific Dunes
Streamsong (Blue)
Lost Dunes
Stonewall (North)
Beechtree
Stonewall(Old)
Riverfront
Legends (Heathland)
Apache Stronghold
Quail Crossing
Charlotte Golf Links
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2013, 09:20:32 AM »
Barnbougle
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Sebonack
Streamsong Blue
CommonGround
Beachtree
Legends Heathland

Chip:  Haven't you played Rock Creek?

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2013, 09:20:56 AM »
What is the over/under on how many people post on this thread AND follow Tom's directions?  ;D

So far more than a quarter have failed to follow directions.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2013, 09:22:36 AM »
What is the over/under on how many people post on this thread AND follow Tom's directions?  ;D

So far more than a quarter have failed to follow directions.

It's okay with me if people express their opinions having played less than five courses.  I just think it messes with the methodology to count those votes.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2013, 09:27:37 AM »
Sadly, I have only three, which I think means I'm allowed to post but my vote won't count:

Pacific Dunes
Lost Dunes
Beechtree

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2013, 09:31:09 AM »
1. Rock Creek
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Old Macdonald
4. Ballyneal
5. Sebonack
6. Stone Eagle
7. Stonewall North
8. Lost Dunes
9. Stonewall Old
10. Beechtree
11. Legends Heathland
Mr Hurricane

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2013, 09:33:29 AM »
I've only played two so it definitely doesn't count...but my #1 is Cape Kidnappers.

I will be interested to see where people who have played a ton put it.  It's my favorite course by a long shot and don't know that it ever will be topped...but I am just starting my travel/playing career.


J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2013, 09:36:33 AM »
1) Pac Dunes
2) Sebonack
3) Streamsong Blue
4) Lost Dunes
5) Ballyneal
6) Stonewall Old
7) High Pointe
8) Legends Heathland
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 01:58:59 PM by J_ Crisham »

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