[Michael George]

Tom:

Re: Cape Kidnappers, I would never underestimate the value of beauty (the ocean) on the ranking of a golf course.  I believe Mackenzie said in some of his writings that he believed the reason that he received no complaints when Cypress opened was solely because it was so beautiful that golfers overlooked things that they may have complained about without it.  

I think sometimes on this site we analyze the golf architecture so much that we overlook that the average golfer appreciates beauty over everything else.   Now, when you combine great architecture with great beauty, you have something very special and that is why Pacific Dunes is my favorite course that I have ever played.
  

[Chris Johnston]

Tom, if I ever ask you where our course ranks in total, feel free to shoot me.  

Per Jim's nearby post, kudos to Ballyneal for making the move to bentgrass greens.  While some are critical when it occurs, sometimes change is good - I'd bet Ballyneal will move up in my personal ranking due to this change and it's already up there!

Having a mix of fescue/bent is not a Superintendents dream - two different grasses in competition with different heat/height tolerances - tradeoffs galore.  While I am sure there are some, I don't know of many "hot" courses that succeed with fescue greens and none that deliver what they want with a blend.  While I believe the fairways are a similar or the same mix of grasses, fairway mowing heights allow for better cohabitation.  

Pure fescue can be wonderful, but it is best done as pure fescue alone.  It can be fussy but, dang, it's good to play on.

Live and learn.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

Forgetting Bay of Dreams already?  Damn, you're getting old

You are correct but Greg T is not me 

[John Sabino]

1. Barnbougle
2. Cape Kidnappers
3. Sebonack
4. Pacific Dunes

Barnbougle is easily the best in my view, the 4th-6th hole stretch is off the charts fun and good. The routing is the best of those I have played, challenging but fair greens. Kidnappers is very different and a bit like Pebble Beach in that a few really great holes (12-16) compensate for some that are not as great.

[John Kirk]

Streamsong, in particular, is not rated nearly as highly as I expected, and certainly not as highly as the client had hoped.

Streamsong (Blue) debuted as the 62nd best course in America, according to Golf Magazine.  Among courses designed by Tom Doak, it ranks below three others:  Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, and Old Macdonald.

Streamsong is built in a flat Florida swamp, albeit a swamp disturbed by phosphorus mining.  If land quality is a factor in the overall quality of the golf course, I would suggest that you have significantly overachieved with your work at Streamsong.  The client should be thrilled.

[Tom_Doak]

1. Barnbougle
2. Cape Kidnappers
3. Sebonack
4. Pacific Dunes

Barnbougle is easily the best in my view, the 4th-6th hole stretch is off the charts fun and good. The routing is the best of those I have played, challenging but fair greens. Kidnappers is very different and a bit like Pebble Beach in that a few really great holes (12-16) compensate for some that are not as great.

John:

I don't know you, but I can say that when we finished building Pacific Dunes, I never dreamed of a day when someone would play four of my courses and rank Pacific 4th out of 4.  I find it amazing, but I have to allow for the possibility that you are just completely bonkers  

[Tom_Doak]

Streamsong (Blue) debuted as the 62nd best course in America, according to Golf Magazine.  Among courses designed by Tom Doak, it ranks below three others:  Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, and Old Macdonald.

Streamsong is built in a flat Florida swamp, albeit a swamp disturbed by phosphorus mining.  If land quality is a factor in the overall quality of the golf course, I would suggest that you have significantly overachieved with your work at Streamsong.  The client should be thrilled.

John:

I can assure you that Bill Coore and I both thought much more highly of the site for Streamsong than how you described it.  It was a really neat piece of ground.  If it remains ranked as my fourth best U.S. design, the client will probably learn to appreciate that, but this poll suggests that it might eventually slip lower, and they probably wouldn't like that so much.

Incidentally, when looking at the LINKS 100 ranking, I don't see either course at Streamsong in there at all.  Is it just not on their ballot, or are both courses really ranked outside the top 100 in America?

[Dan Kelly]

Tom, if I ever ask you where our course ranks in total, feel free to shoot me.  

Bravo.

As I've said more than enough times, this whole ranking business rankles (pun intended). It's like ranking works of art. Shouldn't be done.

Who cares which Tom Doak course some group of semi-informed people (or even perfectly informed people, if there are any such) prefers to some other Tom Doak course, if both of the Tom Doak courses are four-star golf courses, worth traveling to play them?

I don't think even Tom should care about that.

How people rate them, yes; how they rank them, no.

Dan

[Jud_T]

 
How people rate them, yes; how they rank them, no.

So you just want to know which is good, just not how good in relative terms?

[Dan Kelly]

How people rate them, yes; how they rank them, no.

So you just want to know which is good, just not how good in relative terms?

More or less, yes.

I don't care, at all, whether some group of voters prefer Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle Dunes, if both courses are adjudged to be outstanding.

Which is better -- the Mona Lisa or Guernica? David, or the Sistine Chapel?

What an asinine question (IMO, of course).

[Jud_T]

Dan,

So what's your cutoff?  Pretty good? What if one guy says course A is a 4 and course B is a 5?  Isn't that simply the same thing framed differently?  Are you unwilling to say you prefer one course over another?  

[Jim Franklin]

I still can't believe Rock Creek isn't in the Top 10 in the US.

I look forward to playing Streamsong later this fall. Beating the best in Florida should not be a very high hurdle. I may also have to play in the 5th Major if I can get a horse to play with.

I have now played the Stonewall courses three times each within the past 2 months and the Udder Course is really growing on me. The view from the top of the third fairway is very cool and the green at #4 could be in my top 10 favorite greens anywhere along with the likes of #2 at Pine Valley and #7 at Ballyneal.

[Michael Robin]

Here goes:

Pacific Dunes
Ballyneal
Barnbougle
Old Macdonald
Cape Kidnappers
Rock Creek
St.Andrews Beach
Renaissance Club (Old)
Stonewall (Old)
Stone Eagle
Sheep Ranch
Common Ground

I like or love all of these.

[Jamie Pyper]

Like picking a favorite child;

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Barnbougle Dunes
3. Balllyneal
4. Old Mac
5. Dismal River
6. Streamsong
7. Common Ground

.....and dreaming that the potential of the Rosapenna site would jump it into the top 4....

[Steve_Roths]

1. Pacific Dunes
2. Rock Creek
3. Ballyneal

[Bryan Izatt]

I hate ranking but will put them in this order so you can fit it to your methodology.  Apart from Apache, where conditioning really masked the architecture for me, the rest are all very good and a different order would be just fine.

If this exercise is partly about Streamsong and your client's hopes for a better ranking, I think they will be disappointed.  You can't take it out of its context in the backwoods of central FL.  If it happened to be on the Pacific coast or the sea somewhere else, this might be a different conversation.


1   Pacific Dunes  (because it was first, for me, and I've played the most rounds there)

2   Barnbougle Dunes (this course was just so much fun)

3   St. Andrews Beach (it flies under the radar for most, but is really good)

3   Old Macdonald  (Although the templates here are really good, I've seen enough of the original holes that the
                       templates don't turn my crank as much as they may for others)

3   Streamsong (Blue)  (I like it a lot, but the pricey CCFAD resort feel detracts for me)


?   Apache Stronghold

[Mark Bourgeois]

 Streamsong, in particular, is not rated nearly as highly as I expected, and certainly not as highly as the client had hoped.  I was really happy with how it played, both for the best players at the Renaissance Cup, and in a casual round with my wife.  But, it's about my tenth-best course in this informal poll, and I really couldn't tell you which courses it should be ahead of ... except that it should be ahead of 99.9% of the courses in Florida, several of which make the top 100 lists.

A ringing endorsement of the Doak Score system, which I love, and an indictment of magazine rankings, all in one thought. Well done.

[Mac Plumart]

Great point, Mark.

Every RGD course I've seen and/or played has been excellent. Lots of times which one is "better" is simply a matter of personal taste.

Bryan talks about Streamsong, maybe wanting a higher ranking. I thought Streamsong was excellent and I am looking forward to returning.

[Jeff Tang]

Pacific Dunes
Ballyneal
Old Mac
Streamsong Blue
Lost Dunes

For me it's a toss up between Pac Dunes and Ballyneal. Based purely what's on the ground I think both courses have holes of equal quality and strategic merit.  Maintenance wise I think both are maintained perfectly for optimum playing conditions. Throw in the Pacific Ocean though and that's the tie breaker for me so Pacific gets the nod. Love playing near the ocean and in those elements.

Can't wait to see the new course at Dismal someday and Rock Creek.

[Garland Bayley]

John,

Streamsong is built in a flat Florida swamp? Where did all the sand come from? I thought it was build on the central Florida sand ridge. Am I wrong?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Ranking courses I've walked and played. Walked courses are marked with an *, if the accountants wish to not count them.

1. Dismal River Red
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Ballyneal*
4. High Pointe
5. Apache Stronghold
6. Streamsong Blue
7. Old Mac
8. Commonground*

[Bruce Wellmon]

1. Dismal River Red
2. Ballyneal
3. Pac Dunes
4. Legends/Heathland
5. Charlotte Golf Links

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, if I ever ask you where our course ranks in total, feel free to shoot me.  

Bravo.

As I've said more than enough times, this whole ranking business rankles (pun intended). It's like ranking works of art. Shouldn't be done.

Who cares which Tom Doak course some group of semi-informed people (or even perfectly informed people, if there are any such) prefers to some other Tom Doak course, if both of the Tom Doak courses are four-star golf courses, worth traveling to play them?

I don't think even Tom should care about that.

How people rate them, yes; how they rank them, no.

Dan

Dan:

Thanks for your note.

I don't disagree with your thought, and of course, I came up with the Doak Scale for exactly that reason.  But, I'm trying with this thread to come to grips with how people are ranking my courses.  As near as I can tell, they are doing it by comparing one to another, rather than rating each course on its own merits and then seeing where they fall.  I'm trying to get a better sense of how they do that (and why).

Besides, if I'd just asked for Doak ratings for each of my courses, that would have been even MORE narcissistic than this exercise.    At least in this exercise there are some losers as well as some winners.

[Adam Clayman]

1. Bally
2. Old Mac
3. Rock Creek
4. Pac D
5. Streamsong
6. Sebonack
7. High Pointe
8. Apache
9. Black Forest
10. Common G
11. Heathlands

[Dave McCollum]

My apologies to Tom for only playing 3 of his courses, Pac Dunes, Old Mac, and Rock Creek.  For me, they are all the best for different reasons.  Pac Dunes for the best challenge; Old Mac for the best course for the most golfers; RCCC for the best mountain course I’ve ever seen.  Love them all.  Ranking them seems like ranking you favorite children.  What good would come from that?

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