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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2013, 04:45:45 PM »
Wonder where they think Robert Hunter sits...

Where do you think he sits, Matthew?  He was a fascinating guy but he hardly has any golf courses of his own design to his credit.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2013, 05:14:51 PM »
Tom, above Greg Norman for a start!

I suppose it gets back to how one assesses the architects. His book is one of the best texts on golf course architecture ever written. He only designed the one course as a lone architect, but his roles at Cypress Point, The Meadow and Valley Clubs as well as minor redesign work at MPCC and Pebble Beach should have had someone mention Hunter before Jud did.

Is Hunter one of the top two dozen most influential and significant golf course architects ever? In my mind, yes.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 05:37:30 PM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2013, 05:23:05 PM »
What, no Robert Bruce Harris? Colt at #1 is the most interesting thing here (calling Frank Pont).  I'm not sure Tom would rank himself above Bill Coore if he were to entertain such a list.

Jud,

I guess it is based on the combination of quality of work and the amount of courses built with high quality. On that measurement Colt will not easily be surpassed, since he built a lot of high quality courses. However if we talk about best work of the architect, I think architects such as Tom Simpson and Mac will probably score higher because they had more moments of brilliance.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2013, 06:17:54 PM »
William Flynn in at 16????  Philly guys where's the outrage??   WTH are you boys asleep ?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2013, 08:06:42 PM »
Old Tom at #9. If you took all his expenses at every course it might not equal one holes worth of a design today

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2013, 09:27:25 PM »
Old Tom at #9. If you took all his expenses at every course it might not equal one holes worth of a design today

If you took all his earnings as a professional it might not be as much as Phil Mickelson tips the locker room attendant every week.

Sam Morrow

Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2013, 09:36:27 PM »
All the talk about having great sites to work with reminds me that the greatest architect of them all is The Lord himself.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2013, 04:11:51 AM »
I never understood how people rate one architect better than another since golf architecture is one of the few disciplines where not all architects start with the same initial conditions. I'm not taking anything away from Tom Doak but in his young career he has arguably already worked on more world-class sites than any architect ever. Granted, he makes the best of these sites, but who is to say another architect would not given the chance? How do you compare an architect working in the 80s on dead-flat land in a desert with a post-2000 architect who gets a site like Ballyneal or Cabot Cliffs? Just sayin'.

Matt,

I think that quite a few architects would make a great job on a great site if given the chance today. But a lot of that is because the Tom Doaks and Bill Coores have been there before them and blazed the trails.

If you moved a lot of those architects working in the 80's on dead flat land directly on to a bunch of great sites at the time, then you wouldn't have seen the same great results.

Some of that is to do with trends. But a lot of it is that you don't get as many visionaries as you may think.

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2013, 04:43:29 AM »
It is hardly a scientific process because there are so many value judgements involved but perhaps the simpler statement that Tom Doak and Coore/Crenshaw are the most exciting modern (and likely to be high on the all-time list) architects would be less controversial, even if rather obvious.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2013, 05:15:10 AM »
Any list that puts Harry Colt anywhere near the top 5 is highly flawed

Any such list that does not put Old Tom Morris @ #1 is highly flawed

Any list that includes Greg Norman and Jack Nickllaus but excludes Gil Hanse is highly flawed

Anybody who buys that magazine for information rather than titillaltion is highly flawed.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2013, 05:27:35 AM »
Ian Andrew did a great blog series on the best archies of all time years ago on his blog.

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/05/top-25-golf-course-architects-25-mike.html

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2013, 07:34:42 AM »
I never understood how people rate one architect better than another since golf architecture is one of the few disciplines where not all architects start with the same initial conditions. I'm not taking anything away from Tom Doak but in his young career he has arguably already worked on more world-class sites than any architect ever. Granted, he makes the best of these sites, but who is to say another architect would not given the chance? How do you compare an architect working in the 80s on dead-flat land in a desert with a post-2000 architect who gets a site like Ballyneal or Cabot Cliffs? Just sayin'.

Matt,

I think that quite a few architects would make a great job on a great site if given the chance today. But a lot of that is because the Tom Doaks and Bill Coores have been there before them and blazed the trails.

If you moved a lot of those architects working in the 80's on dead flat land directly on to a bunch of great sites at the time, then you wouldn't have seen the same great results.

Some of that is to do with trends. But a lot of it is that you don't get as many visionaries as you may think.

Without the artificial period of the 80s the more naturalist period we are in now may not have happened. Most eras are reactions to the era that proceeded them in order to distinguish itself. I bet you if Doak or Coore were designing 30 years earlier their courses would have looked more artificial. They came around at the right time to be the trail blazers of a new style. Just like Pete Dye had done 30 or 40 years before them.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2013, 07:51:31 AM »
I never understood how people rate one architect better than another since golf architecture is one of the few disciplines where not all architects start with the same initial conditions. I'm not taking anything away from Tom Doak but in his young career he has arguably already worked on more world-class sites than any architect ever. Granted, he makes the best of these sites, but who is to say another architect would not given the chance? How do you compare an architect working in the 80s on dead-flat land in a desert with a post-2000 architect who gets a site like Ballyneal or Cabot Cliffs? Just sayin'.

Matt,

I think that quite a few architects would make a great job on a great site if given the chance today. But a lot of that is because the Tom Doaks and Bill Coores have been there before them and blazed the trails.

If you moved a lot of those architects working in the 80's on dead flat land directly on to a bunch of great sites at the time, then you wouldn't have seen the same great results.

Some of that is to do with trends. But a lot of it is that you don't get as many visionaries as you may think.

Without the artificial period of the 80s the more naturalist period we are in now may not have happened. Most eras are reactions to the era that proceeded them in order to distinguish itself. I bet you if Doak or Coore were designing 30 years earlier their courses would have looked more artificial. They came around at the right time to be the trail blazers of a new style. Just like Pete Dye had done 30 or 40 years before them.

Matt,
perhaps-he definitely had a great mentor.
I don't buy the whole natural vs. artificial stuff.
just good vs. not so good.

Tom had the good fortune to have no relatives in the business ;), and had to start from the ground up and had the "opportunity" to do years of research and see thousands of courses, and actually study the work of the past greats,while also working with and for  a current great, which no doubt shaped his thinking.
He didn't he the disadvantage ;) of immediately going out and being allowed to produce crap.

Did he consiously seek a new style to distinguish himself from the pack?
or did he simply do better work, which happened to appear more natural.

Eventually, and no doubt agonizingly slowly(writing a tell all book certainly didn't help in the short run ;)), his work was recognized, and better properties followed.

Plenty of well known 80's/90's signature  architects have had marvelous properties, with average results.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2013, 09:32:42 AM »

Did he consiously seek a new style to distinguish himself from the pack?


I think if you ask Tom that very question he will in fact say that he made a very deliberate decision to not design courses that looked like Dye, but to in fact go in another direction so that he would distinguish himself. If Tom made courses that looked like Dye he would not have gotten any work  (why hire the copy if you can hire the real thing?). He instead chose to go down another path and thus became a trail blazer. It is very similar to how Dye saw the style of Trent Jones and made a concious decision to go in another direction.
Trust me, give it enough time and a designer will emerge that will distinguish himself from the current style and shift the entire direction of golf design into a new era. Mind you, to be fair, that might be more difficult since there are less and less courses being built.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 09:34:29 AM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2013, 10:32:10 AM »

Did he consiously seek a new style to distinguish himself from the pack?


I think if you ask Tom that very question he will in fact say that he made a very deliberate decision to not design courses that looked like Dye, but to in fact go in another direction so that he would distinguish himself. If Tom made courses that looked like Dye he would not have gotten any work  (why hire the copy if you can hire the real thing?). He instead chose to go down another path and thus became a trail blazer. It is very similar to how Dye saw the style of Trent Jones and made a concious decision to go in another direction.
Trust me, give it enough time and a designer will emerge that will distinguish himself from the current style and shift the entire direction of golf design into a new era. Mind you, to be fair, that might be more difficult since there are less and less courses being built.

It really would be better if you guys just asked me the question, instead of speculating about my answer.

Matt, I had only been working at Long Cove about a month when Mr. Dye told me the story of building Harbour Town and when he made the decision to do his own thing instead of following Trent Jones.  [Honestly, I think he over-simplified a bit, because he had built Crooked Stick and The Golf Club prior to Harbour Town, but maybe that means he was trying to teach me a lesson instead of just reminiscing.]  Anyway, the main reason you know that story is because I have repeated it, I don't know that Pete ever told it to any golf writers.

I never for a minute took his story to mean that he'd made that decision as a business decision.  I took it to mean that he thought it was a shame that everybody was building the same stuff and that golf deserved better than that, so he ought to try something different.  He had obviously seen enough great courses here and overseas to realize that not all of them were in the Trent Jones style.  I also took his story to mean that copying Pete's style was the wrong thing for me to do, and that I ought to find my own voice.

So, that's what I did.  I've nodded in the past to the idea that I didn't want to copy Pete's style because it didn't make any sense; I figured I would be competing against not only Pete but also P.B. and Perry, and if you wanted their style you weren't going to hire me anyway.  But it was still more than a business decision ... it was a realization that I liked the Golden Age styles better.  Even before I started at Long Cove, I'd spent a summer getting around to Merion and Pine Valley and SFGC and Riviera and all those great courses, and wondered why nobody built anything like them anymore.  And I'd spent a little time talking to Ben Crenshaw, who wondered the same thing.

Also, being a child of the nuclear age, I was more likely to appreciate that even though we now had the power to destroy the earth, it would be better for the world if we never had to use that power.

What my little conversation with Mr. Dye did for me was free me of the notion that I had to copy his style to show my appreciation to him.  I don't know if he had the same conversation with some of the other guys who worked for him, or whether they just didn't take it the same way I did.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2013, 10:50:53 AM »
Doak's and C & C's positions are about right at this time.  There are quite a few modern architects who should populate the top half of the list if nothing else because they're normally better educated, the science is greatly advanced, and they have access to all sorts of information and technologies.  Perhaps commercial success, taking into consideration courses that went bankrupt, were greatly changed, or NLE in proportion to the architect's body of work, should be included in this assessment.

Craig E,

Dr. Mac was a great promoter.  What would you expect him to say, that PM was only good at following orders?  Maxwell is high on the list, but he is much more in the mold of a Ralph Plummer than the Good Doctor, Tillie, or even George Thomas.  

Peter Pallotta

Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2013, 10:54:57 AM »
"What my little conversation with Mr. Dye did for me was free me of the notion that I had to copy his style to show my appreciation to him"

Lovely.  

A great (and kind) mentor, a mature (and dedicated) student.

I wonder how much of the truly good and beneficial work - in art, theology, medicine, music, business, design - has come about because of this same kind of (still quite rare) mentor-student relationship.  

Peter

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2013, 11:27:09 AM »

Craig E,

Dr. Mac was a great promoter.  What would you expect him to say, that PM was only good at following orders?  Maxwell is high on the list, but he is much more in the mold of a Ralph Plummer than the Good Doctor, Tillie, or even George Thomas.  

I always get them confused, with all that great work that Plummer did at Pine Valley, Augusta, NGLA, Gulph Mills, Philadelphia Country Club, and of course all the courses he has ranked in the top 100...   :P

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2013, 11:51:34 AM »
Does Mr Norman own any portion of Travel and Leisure?
Otherwise I cannot at all see his name being worthy of conversation with the others on this list,proposterous.

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2013, 10:42:28 PM »
All this talk about this list and no one cites the methodology.  A number of people correctly assumed the general idea behind the method used in creating the list but here is the printed description from the magazine.

"Working with the top 250 courses on the LINKS100 World list, we assigned design points for each, using a sliding scale (the top 33 courses were given 10 points to be distributed to the architect(s) who shaped them, numbers 33 through 66 were given 9 points, and so on)."

The article admits the method used misses a lot but says the list is a "good place to start the conversation."
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 06:47:26 PM by Joe_Tucholski »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2013, 08:06:22 AM »
I wonder what courses Greg Norman got points for?  He has no courses listed in the world top 100.  I guess Doonbeg and Nirwana Bali and The National might all be somewhere in the top 250 ... still hard to see him getting more points than George Thomas or Perry Maxwell out of those, however.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2013, 08:41:26 AM »
I think it would be fun to give awards to the architects on this list based on certain categories:

Best routing -
Best greens -
Best par 3's -
Best par 4's -
Best par 5's -
Most fun -
Most difficult (but fair) -
Most playable (but still challenging) -

No need to respond to each category, but I think it will spark an interesting discussion.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2013, 09:16:20 AM »
Michael,

You could award those, but the pros would cut up rough when six of the eight trophies went posthumously to George Crump!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2013, 04:52:06 PM »
I always get them confused, with all that great work that Plummer did at Pine Valley, Augusta, NGLA, Gulph Mills, Philadelphia Country Club, and of course all the courses he has ranked in the top 100...   :P

I have noticed it, your predilection with confusion.  The learning on gca.com never ceases.  Now I know why Bobby Jones didn't pay Dr. MacKenzie his full fee for Augusta National.  In a very Obamaian way, "he didn't build that", Perry Maxwell did.  ::)

I would be interested in your list of 10 Perry Maxwell designs (not where he might have scratched some dirt under the guidance of someone else, e.g. Crystal Downs), and you can include the nine holes at Prairie Dunes he did.  I am only familiar with a few, Southern Hills and PD are outstanding and probably better than anything Plummer did.  Can't think of anything else that gets me thinking you are little more than a Homer.  ;)


  

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Links Magazine: Tom Doak #5 All Time
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2013, 10:27:32 AM »
Lou,

   How about you name 1 course that Ralphie did that deserves to be in the top 100, just 1 you think is better than Prairie Dunes or Southern Hills.

   Name 3 existing courses that Ralph was ask to work on that are in the NGLA, Pine Valley and Augusta neighborhood.

   I think Ian Andrew had Perry Maxwell in about the right place...

   http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/06/architect-10-perry-maxwell.html