[Jim Nugent]

Jason, that struck me as well, and with a fairway wood.  He is hitting off a sidehill/hook lie, which may have influenced the flight path. 

[Charlie Gallagher]

Jeff,
  The point I'm making is that the modern swing shuns rotation for width and claims that it is some how more efficient. If you look at the swings of the classic players from the 30's 40's 50's and 60's you will see in the best swings a centered turn with significant hip rotation on the back swing. That motion set up a rotational movement back to the ball and helped those players create power, elevation,  and accuracy. Modern equipment has allowed players to get away with swings that create power and lag via lateral movements. Try that with a 1960's 3 iron and you will have trouble getting the ball airborne.
   Pitchers, hockey players, and discus throwers all use lower body rotation to create mechanical efficiency, speed,  power, and accuracy. Bubba Watson  is off plane and has other mechanical flaws in his swing, but he does have lower body rotation in his backswing which contributes to why he can accelerate and  hit it a very long distance.  You can see the rotation in Hogan's swing in  the excellent video attached. Take a look at Snead and you will see all sorts of modern rules violated. He straightens his right leg on the backswing  and his address posture is all wrong by modern definition, for instance his chin is pointing almost  straight down and his upper back is rounded. In his late 70's he could still drive the old ball with a persimon driver more than 250 yards. He won more than 80 PGA events  and somewhere around 130 events world wide. He could hit a persimon driver better than 300 yards fairly frequently in his late 40's and early 50's. How far he would hit it with a 460cc driver I can only imagine. He could hit all the shot shapes. So could Hogan, and while as ball strikers they may have been without peer, there were others from that era who could summon great power and accuracy. A slightly more modern example might be Johnny Miller. He straightened his right leg on the backswing and had a significant amount of hip  rotation that was a by product of that and could propel it long and accurately based upon his very centered rotation.
   That's a point that may be lost to antiquity, but my bet is a rotaionally efficient player is going to come along sometime and if he can putt he will be a force to be dealt with and for a very long time.
  

[jeffwarne]

Charlie,
You don't see players rotating today?
You don't think Adam Scott could hit a 1960's 3 iron?

Interesting because I have one with the exact same shaft I use in my irons today and I don't hit it any different than my 4 iron (it is 4 iron length and loft)

I'd go with a different theory.
Put 10,000,000 athletes in a a room and have many/most get plenty of time,supervision and training and 200 great ballstrikers emerge.

go back 50,60,70 years and put 500,000 kids who weren't great at other sports (with multiple exceptions) in a room, have them caddie much of the time, drink, gamble, and or work part time and less good ballstrikers emerge.

I simply found it interesting that you chose the word x-factor, as Jim McLean used that word to describe coiling shoulders against hips on the backswing to store maximum energy on the backswing, via increased downswing rotation.
Ben Hogan specifically writes about this(restricting the hip tun) in his book, and he is one of the examples McLean uses in his teaching.

There is no doubt a lot of nonsense in today's teaching world, and no doubt a lot of opportunistic quacks, but on balance, instruction is light years better than 50 years ago.
In fact the 1960's (particularly Johnny Miller, Jack Nicklaus era) were the dark ages of golf instruction as both greatly influenced teachers to  stress lateral motion on the downswing to a fault. "drive your knees to the target"resulting in a "reverse c"
The 1970's were the era of short careers as players employing that method had bad backs and duck hooks
fortunately for Miller he didn't keep the club "down the line" as he advocates ad nauseum on TV, but rather rotated hard allowing the club to swing left, keeping the club beautifully on plane.
Nicklaus, unlike most players of his era, was a great athlete, and used his power to great advantage.
Nowadays he would simply be one of the great athletes out there, although he would hold his own via his stronger mind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Following up on your post above, one of the top players recently indicated that the reason so many young golfers were so good, so young, was because of advanced teaching techniques centered around video/computer technology and instant feedback.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

Following up on your post above, one of the top players recently indicated that the reason so many young golfers were so good, so young, was because of advanced teaching techniques centered around video/computer technology and instant feedback.

True.
I would say the reason so many young kids get good quickly is the START and continue to get equipment that fits.

When I started at age 11, I used my dad's 1 inch extra long, true temper stiff steel dynamic shafts .
No doubt that contributed to my flat rolling takeaway as the weight of them was certainly burdensome.
Other kids my age were simply using their dad's cut off clubs, which while shorter and lighter, were certainly XX stiff.
You develop a bit of hang back when trying to get a stiff wooden driver up the air.

Nowadays a kid comes to me and has instant, affordable clubs. (US Kids are $15-30 each, and you only need 3-4 to start)
Plus, I always have extras laying around from kids who have outgrown them and moved to the next size.

and good athletes take up golf immediately now, rather than playing other sports, THEN turning to golf at a later age.

[Marc Haring]

Wayne Defransesco I reckon gets to do about the best analysis of Hogan or just about any other swing these days. His Hogan analysis can be seen here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma84i1Ok3I0

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

In Mr Hogans era and indeed mine, we learnt playing to contol the ballflight and accuracy reigned supreme.
That was partiallly due to the Persimmon or otherwsie drivers and the fact that the ball was not designed to go so straight.
As such we simply didnt learn to hit it so hard right from the get go.
These youngsters today learn to hit it hard and far first without much consideration for accuracy, why should they the combination of ball and club no longer creates shots that deviate offline as much with anything close to a centre hit.

Nothing groundbreaking in these comments I know, but in combination with improved science and high speed biomechancial anylysis, there are so fewer questions about what is biomechanically efficeint anymore, less experimentation and more hit it hard from the get go.

[Jim Nugent]

 It was a different time back then - nowhere near as deep a talent pool as there is today.

I think you are right.  At the same time, playing against the best players of our time, 59-year old Tom Watson (about a month away from turning 60) came within an inch or so of winning the most famous major in golf.  So despite the far bigger pool of greater athletes, despite the more advanced instruction, high-tech equipment and instant video analyses, old guys from an earlier era can still at times compete at the highest level.  It's another example that athleticism is not so critical in golf.  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEnZ05egRvY

The best anlaysis I have evr seen for those with time to kill and a will to learn.

[Marc Haring]

Yes i've seen that one before. Dan did his homework.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I am actually seeing Dan on Saturday in Manchester, going to the United game and then Sunday morning at the range.

[Marc Haring]

Well send him my congratulations Michael on a great analysis.

His later swing generally received more praise but Dan manages to show the flaws, sacreligous though that may be. Has any other sportsman been given such mythical status?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Certainly not in terms of technique and folklore like stories.
I have never seen the techniques of Tennis legends such as Rod Laver being geiven as much legendary status, not even groundbreaking movements such as the Fosbury Flop, whose originator is credited buit not in the manner that Hogan is.

[Charlie Gallagher]

Jeff,
   There is alot that I agree with in what you say. There is no doubt that the players today are bigger and stronger. It's also true that there is a lot more information on the golf swing out there than there was even 20 years ago. Your point about the reverse c is also valid. If you stay down the line and keep driving laterally left, you're going to put a lot of pressure on your lower back.
  The point I am making is this, Hogan Snead, Palmer and many others had a lot more hip turn on the backswing than modern players do and they used that to generate power and, near and through impact, to  get the ball up in the air. Compare Adam Scott's hip rotation in his backswing to Snead's or Hogan's pre bus accident and it's not even close in terms of the relative degree of rotation. Those classic players were extremely accurate with a ball that was very unforgiving on mis hits because it curved way more than todays ball is designed to. The classic players had more centripital action in their swings than most of the modern players do.
   I am most certainly not condemning modern players, I'm pointing out that some of that x factor business is not accurate when we take a look at the classic swings of players like Hogan, Snead, Palmer and many others. And as I  said before I expect that at some point we're going to see a player who employs more of the classic elements in his or her swing who can putt who with modern equipment is going to be longer and more accurate than many players today.
  One final point, if you carefully compare Hogans exacting words in his books on the swing and video of his actual motion there are  examples of his feel and what's real not matching up. If I remember correctly, Power Golf was written just before the bus crash, probably in fairly close proximity to the footage attached here. In 47 and 48 Hogan was near the peak of his powers as a player. The swing we look at in this video was the swing he was using to win frequently. Undeniably, that swing has far greater rotation in the backswing than we see in most modern players. The player employing it was accurate to the point that he stopped aiming at the flag stick on approaches in 1940 because he was hitting it and getting bad bounces too often..

[jeffwarne]

Charlie,

First you tell me Hogan had a better way to swing,
then you tell me that what he states in his book about restricting his backswing hip turn is an example of feel vs. real.
i.e. we shouldn't heed his advice he so strongly advocated in his book on restricting backswing hip turn.(which may well be true for many players of lesser flexibility)


Then you tell me how hard to accurately control the ball was then, but that Hogan had to aim away from flags to avoid bad bounces off of flags, presumably because his ball went so accurately

Seems you may want to examine what's real vs. myth
not saying he didn't say it or write it, just that this is the same guy who said if you ever saw him on the green at 11 at Augusta, he pulled it.
If he was so accurate that flgs were in his way, surely he could find a way onto that green between the flag and the water

The straightness of the modern ball is way overrated-it's the distance it goes that's the joke

[Patrick_Mucci]

Charlie,

First you tell me Hogan had a better way to swing,
then you tell me that what he states in his book about restricting his backswing hip turn is an example of feel vs. real.
i.e. we shouldn't heed his advice he so strongly advocated in his book on restricting backswing hip turn.(which may well be true for many players of lesser flexibility)


Then you tell me how hard to accurately control the ball was then, but that Hogan had to aim away from flags to avoid bad bounces off of flags, presumably because his ball went so accurately

Jeff,  That's a PURE MYTH

Seems you may want to examine what's real vs. myth
not saying he didn't say it or write it, just that this is the same guy who said if you ever saw him on the green at 11 at Augusta, he pulled it.
If he was so accurate that flgs were in his way, surely he could find a way onto that green between the flag and the water

The straightness of the modern ball is way overrated-it's the distance it goes that's the joke

[Marc Haring]

Come on. We all know his main problem on the course was he'd drive into the divots of his previous round!

[Charlie Gallagher]

Jeff,
   You are mischaracterizing what I said.
   I will summarize it this way, if you watch Hogan,  Snead, or Palmer, as examples, they have more backswing hip rotation than modern players. They played a ball tha curved more which they could control and hit to their intended targets with a swing that had more backswwing  rotation than the modern swing. They were extremly accurate with that ball and swing. Lesser skilled players were more subject to being unable to control the curvature of the old ball or hit it any distance. It is also a documented fact that with the equipment and ball he played with, Hogan stopped aiming at the flag in 1940. I believe he only had 3 career holes in one. He played to the most receptive part of the green for him to putt. Hogan had less backswing rotation after the bus accident.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,
   You are mischaracterizing what I said.
   I will summarize it this way, if you watch Hogan,  Snead, or Palmer, as examples, they have more backswing hip rotation than modern players. They played a ball tha curved more which they could control and hit to their intended targets with a swing that had more backswwing  rotation than the modern swing. They were extremly accurate with that ball and swing. Lesser skilled players were more subject to being unable to control the curvature of the old ball or hit it any distance. It is also a documented fact that with the equipment and ball he played with, Hogan stopped aiming at the flag in 1940. I believe he only had 3 career holes in one. He played to the most receptive part of the green for him to putt. Hogan had less backswing rotation after the bus accident.

Charlie
So Hogan had only 3 holes in one BECAUSE he was so accurate.
You clearly believe everything you read, yet refuse to believe what Hogan himself wrote in he most famous golf instructional book ever, about intentionally restricting his backswing hip turn.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

A backswing restriction feeling that he created by being incredibly flexible and feeling'torque" against his right knese as he turned his hips and shoulders as much as he could.
The resistance he wrote about was that resisitance craeted by that right leg,  NOT   a conscious decision not to rotate either shoulders or hips.

Post accident there was less flexibility but still as much 'torque'  around his right leg, so the backswing just looks shorter

[jeffwarne]

A backswing restriction feeling that he created by being incredibly flexible and feeling'torque" against his right knese as he turned his hips and shoulders as much as he could.
The resistance he wrote about was that resisitance craeted by that right leg,  NOT   a conscious decision not to rotate either shoulders or hips.

Michael,Charlie,
with respect
Hogan wrote
"This tension is built up on the backswing by retarding the hips, but rotating the shoulders fully around. If you permit the hips to turn too much on the backswing, this tension and torsion are lost and then there's nothing to start them forward"

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I really dont care what he "said"have you ever seen any footage..retorical....
Are you seriuosly saying you dont see alot of hip rotation against a fixed right leg

Having done several biomchanical  digital swing breakdowns as part of my Masters thesis, and Hogan as my  golfing idol  was certainly one of the swings anlaysed, he has in excess of 45* of hip rotation both pre and post accident.
If that fulfills your criteria for hip rotation limitation then we are all in agreement.

[Pat Burke]

Hogan said he was "retarding" his hip movement
and rotating his shoulders around that.
From where his golf swing started, through the evolution pre acccident,
and then with his limitations post accident,
he was restricting his hip movement in relation to
what the potential of his hip motion was.

So, in my opinion, you're both right!!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Pat,
I can go for that and the restriction was governed by the "rigid" right leg which itself was effective in part by the very prevelant reverse K look of his set up.
Having his right knee kicked in so much was obviously what he used to feel that sense of restriction on the backswing, so much so that at times he could almost look reverse pivoty ala Jose Maria Olazabal who swings in a similar fashion...IMHO

[jeffwarne]

Hogan said he was "retarding" his hip movement
and rotating his shoulders around that.
From where his golf swing started, through the evolution pre acccident,
and then with his limitations post accident,
he was restricting his hip movement in relation to
what the potential of his hip motion was.

So, in my opinion, you're both right!!

Hogan's hip rotation is what it is, as MWP and Charlie point out feel isn't always real.
That said, its very difficult for me to grasp how modern instruction can be wrong/blamed/credited for advocating something Hogan clearly felt was important and wrote about so strongly.60 years ago

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