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Jeff_Lewis

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Ferry Point Progress
« on: September 18, 2013, 10:49:23 PM »
Obviously, this is a total fiasco.  Massive delays and cost overruns, but I flew directly over the site today landing at Laguardia and I have never been so excited to play a Jack Nicklaus course.  No trees.  Cool bunker shapes and placements.  The fake mounds look a little too manufactured, but maybe they look better from the ground.  Anybody have an update?

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2013, 10:52:06 PM »
I drove by it today. Not too impressed to be honest. The hillocks either side of the fairways look way too manufactured.

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2013, 11:10:49 PM »
The Nicklaus site has an interview with Jack. He sounds optimistic. I grew up 2 miles from there and these were my little league fields so I am rooting for this to work. I am not sure if the cost is sustainable for a public course but we will see.

http://www.nicklaus.com/design/ferrypoint/

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 11:38:31 AM »
Jeff,

   Your curiosity and excitement to play JN's design at Ferry Point is well founded.

    Myself, Brad Klein and Brian Chapin were fortunate to walk it a few weeks back and it blew us away. Not one of us could admit that had we not known the history of the project, no way we'd recognize it immediately as a JN design. The holes are smartly routed across the wind and views with unique and interesting aiming points (i.e. Freedom Tower, large local cemetery cross, several church spires and steeples and the northern abutment of the Whitestone Bridge). The course flows very nicely out, across, across again and back.

  The fairways are wide and receptive, corridors of holes aren't defined by typical trees and bushes. Instead, they are slightly mounded with low-lying fescue and heather, designed to be maintained thin and eminently playable. Elevation, while slight and artificial feels just right and the course could not possibly be more walkable. Green sites vary in size,  are well-shaped with a few "Lionsmouth-style" centerline bunkers. The greens surfaces are wavy and fluid, hardly typical Jack, but do not approach Doak'ian madness either. It's a very unique work by Jack that most definitely evokes lessons learned from his earlier forays at Dismal.

  At present, 10 holes are fully ready for golf and another 4-6 are grassed in and growing nicely. The 16th-18th were almost done shaping and are expected to get seed this fall. I'd say it'll be ready to debut mid-to-late next summer.

   No question it's going to be a winner for NYC public golf. Even if Trump manages it as a CCFAD, it's tee sheets will be chock full of golfers coming from Westchester, LI, and all the boroughs. As for cost-analysis, lets just say the it can never make sense nor serve as a model for a successful municipal golf development model. Maybe HBS will use it as a model for how not to go about it on the way to producing a fine product! ::) For example, the on-course bathroom complex is rumored to have cost nearly $2MM!! :o

  Lastly, I think it will prove quite interesting to the governing bodies, from the Met through to the USGA, as a venue for big-scale events. Ping me if you want to meet out there sometime.


   Mark,

  The corridor hillocks are indeed 100% manufactured...as is 100% of the rest of the site. Nothing other than a waste-dump site and it's subsequent remediation are beneath it. It belongs in discussions with the likes of a Shadow Creek, Bayonne, Chambers Bay, Whistling Straits, Harborside Int'l, Glen Club or Liberty National....all manufactured. What's really different and positive here is the subtlety and restrained heights of these mounds....just enough IMHO to segregate the holes and border the green sites.
  
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 12:06:55 PM »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2013, 08:34:50 PM »
Three comments about Trump Links at Ferry Point Park.
The entire golf course is completely grassed and being grown in.   The practice facilities are being drained and irrigated presently and hopefully will be grassed by mid October.
Regardless of anyone's gca of choice, this golf course was going to cost what it cost.....way too much.
Finally, I think there are going to be some very surprised folks when they see the course for the first time.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2013, 08:38:33 PM »
Three comments about Trump Links at Ferry Point Park.
The entire golf course is completely grassed and being grown in.   The practice facilities are being drained and irrigated presently and hopefully will be grassed by mid October.
Regardless of anyone's gca of choice, this golf course was going to cost what it cost.....way too much.
Finally, I think there are going to be some very surprised folks when they see the course for the first time.

Jim, is the peripheral mounding reminiscent of Loxahatchee and Grand Cypress East #10?   :o ;D

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2013, 08:43:04 PM »
Jeff,

  

  The fairways are wide and receptive, corridors of holes aren't defined by typical trees and bushes. Instead, they are slightly mounded with low-lying fescue and heather,
  

Thanks for the update Steve.
Heather?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2013, 08:46:21 PM »
I can't imagine anyone equating the dune landforms at FP with anything at GC or Loxahatchee.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2013, 09:12:54 PM »
I can't imagine anyone equating the dune landforms at FP with anything at GC or Loxahatchee.

Just asking, haven't seen Ferry Point. 

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 01:49:21 AM »
Finally, I think there are going to be some very surprised folks when they see the course for the first time.

Jim, did you have any input on the course? 

John Percival

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2013, 08:23:47 AM »
As much as I love golf courses, and the uniqueness of the site aside, this project is one of the great head scratchers of all time. The cost will end up being well over $100 mil, most of it gov't/taxpayer money. The site is not suited to further development because of EPA potential issues. Greens fees wont begin to cover the annual maintenance costs, thus the actual pricetag will continue to grow (see Chambers Bay). DT is gonna come back and insist on some sort of 'bump' from the City due to 'unforeseen' issues. And the Tour wont stop here, not with so many other viable options in the NYC area.
They should have built a park with soccer fields, ball diamonds, etc and a nature area. The costs would have been dramatically lower, and, more importantly, the annual maintenance would be manageable.
Now, am I gonna play it when it's done. You betcha!

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2013, 08:30:15 AM »
 ::) ::) ::)

John , you so so right ,  I'm all for Darwinian Theory when it comes to building golf courses, keep the government out of it . We've had lots of debate on this in the past , but I've yet to be convinced that we need to build golf course with taxpayer money !

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2013, 09:30:08 AM »
I agree with all those whose anti-government $$ investment into public golf. For all our love of golf, it's not and shouldn't be a legitimate use of public funds. In today's world, it's solely the domain of the private sector.

Ferry Point is the most unique of situations. All the $$ that's been wasted pre-2012 is gone, unrecoverable, and really no longer a concern for those who will enjoy the benefit of the property's finished product. Knocking it for the association with Trump is equally worthless because few others were willing to sink the capital expense of finishing the remaining facilities to the scale NYC demanded. His ability to price the golf will be 100% restrained by the contract struck with NYC Parks & Recreation. I've seen the contract and he's got a fabulous deal, but very little wiggle room to address "unforeseen" issues.

Furthermore, I'd not wager one penny against the future involvement of the PGA Tour or USGA. I think your assumption that "many other viable options in the NYC area" would preclude the PGA Tour from coming is foolhardy and presumptuous. My guess is that the USGA will jump in first, but as a site for a Barclays or even a future Tour Championship event, FP has little competition. The largest media-market in the world, densest  population center in the US, coupled with relatively easy access, public ownership, Nicklaus heritage, all sprinkled with a Trumpian lust for the bright lights....should any sane soul really want to wager against that?

This course will dominate the headlines most of next year. I understand the desire of a few here to take their shots at everything from the huge waste (above and below ground), the manufactured nature of the design, the involvement of anything Trump, etc... It's hardly without some flaws, however once people reconcile it's costly past (most of which occurred in the 1990s and early 2000s), it will be embraced as another great asset to golf. IMO, that will be it's bottom line.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 10:07:32 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2013, 10:02:31 AM »
And the Tour wont stop here, not with so many other viable options in the NYC area.

John,

Are you sure about that?  I have it on good knowledge that the TOUR is eagerly awaiting the outcome of this project to see if it's a viable host that could become part of the Barclays rotation.  The Players don't love Liberty National, but I can tell you they absolutely love staying in Manhattan for an event-double the amount of players stayed in NYC in 2013 as opposed to 2009.  Trump now owns a regular TOUR stop in Miami.  Bethpage just committed to hosting major events in 2019 and 2024 which might open a slot.  I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but I can tell you that it's too early to say "The TOUR won't stop here".

Mike

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2013, 10:12:57 AM »
Mr. Nugent....yes, for many many years  :)

John Percival

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2013, 10:57:07 AM »
This is gonna hurt...
...the area around the course is 'economically challenged.'
There is very limited access and no infrastructure.
Planes on final approach to LaG are throwin' 120 dBs. (That's ok for us mere mortals, but imagine trying to earn checks thru that)
After a few players see what's about, they'll be over at LN kissing the ground.

The idea on paper sounds good, and DT probably inflated the fantasy. But Ponte Vedra Beach is a long way from the reality of FP.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2013, 11:20:36 AM »
This is gonna hurt...
...the area around the course is 'economically challenged.'
There is very limited access and no infrastructure.
Planes on final approach to LaG are throwin' 120 dBs. (That's ok for us mere mortals, but imagine trying to earn checks thru that)
After a few players see what's about, they'll be over at LN kissing the ground.

The idea on paper sounds good, and DT probably inflated the fantasy. But Ponte Vedra Beach is a long way from the reality of FP.


  John,

   Should a guy who spends plenty of time in the Detroit area really be casting stones and accusing a lower middle-class and industrial neighborhood of being "economically challenged?" ;)

    The area around FP isn't half as bad as you make it out.  Need I remind you that the venue the Pros are playing at today has considerable challenges from real crime and "economic challenge?"

   On infrastructure and and limited access you are also quite mistaken.  A combo of buses and trains and autos all have relatively easy access to the site with considerable public park staging areas located less than 300yds away. The planned clubhouse will look state-of-the-art relative to some of the other tour stops. As for LGA flight paths and vectors, just ask the FAA or the NY-NJ Port Authority what they've done to address this in the past 50yrs. for the USTA, Worlds Fair and Shea Stadium.

   Pointe Vedra Beach, last I looked, was dominated by those whose moth-like affinity for the bright lights is only exceeded by the bright green color of their blood plasma. FP fits their bill without the DT promotion. It may pain you greatly to admit it, but FP will be a success when viewed from today forward.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 11:22:50 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

John Percival

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2013, 11:32:46 AM »
S,
First of all, every major city has economically challenged areas.
Second, the 'planned' clubhouse is just that. See Chambers Bay.
Third, and most importantly, this project will not bring a Tour event to NYC. They already have one. So why the justification of the costs and effort? At best, it is a lateral move financed by tens of millions of taxpayers' money.
Fourth, you sound as though you live in NYC. If so, I envy you. It is Laura and my favorite destination. If you do, then you know that a commute to this site takes almost as long as a commute to Westchester. 'Nuff said.

So, you and I disagree on the future potential of a Tour visit. Wanna make it interesting?

Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2013, 11:50:19 AM »
This is gonna hurt...
...the area around the course is 'economically challenged.'

John, it doesn't hurt that much...see Exhibit A on my side-East Lake Golf Club.  Not exactly Greenwich or Bel Air that the folks in PVB are staging an event in this week.

The US Open Tennis did ok under the flight path of LGA for a long time and then Mayor Dinkins arranged for that path to change for that time period.  There is a precedent there.  

As we are now going back and forth on a hypothetical...I'll take you up on that bet.  FP opens in 2014, I'll take a PGA TOUR event announced to be played there by 2017.  Top 50 Met area club round and caddy on me if I lose.  If I win, dinner on you on Arthur Ave in the Bronx after we go to the TOUR event together.

Mike

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2013, 12:37:03 PM »
S,
First of all, every major city has economically challenged areas.
Second, the 'planned' clubhouse is just that. See Chambers Bay.
Third, and most importantly, this project will not bring a Tour event to NYC. They already have one. So why the justification of the costs and effort? At best, it is a lateral move financed by tens of millions of taxpayers' money.
Fourth, you sound as though you live in NYC. If so, I envy you. It is Laura and my favorite destination. If you do, then you know that a commute to this site takes almost as long as a commute to Westchester. 'Nuff said.

So, you and I disagree on the future potential of a Tour visit. Wanna make it interesting?

John,

Sure, all major cities have such areas, but you unjustly labeled FP as bordering such an area when, in fact, it does not.

The planned clubhouse will be built*. Trump is contractually bound to build the plan he submitted to NYC Parks & Rec. He LOSES the right to manage if he does not finish the clubhouse. No such obligation, to the best of my knowledge, exists at Chambers Bay.

FP WAS NOT built explicitly to host a Tour event and if you read my posts carefully, I believe the USGA is as viable, if not more so, a candidate to host an event there. The Tour cares about dollars, exposure, regional location, purse and TV eyeballs....all of them legitimize an event there. Nobody knows this better than Pete Bevacqua. If you want to make a wager that includes the USGA and establishes a 5yr window from FP's opening to the announcement of an event....NUMBER ME!

Though I did for many years, I no longer live in NYC, but it it should take no more than 30 min from midtown with no traffic and 40 with. A combo of buses and subways isn't any longer, if not a tad shorter. Both are acceptable to any golfing body if it puts 10 million people within that radius. Where else does the Tour or USGA get that combo of proximity and adjacent staging areas?


And if you want a teaser bet with the clubhouse involved, happy to oblige.  ;D
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 08:14:49 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2013, 01:10:23 PM »
S,
First of all, every major city has economically challenged areas.
Second, the 'planned' clubhouse is just that. See Chambers Bay.
Third, and most importantly, this project will not bring a Tour event to NYC. They already have one. So why the justification of the costs and effort? At best, it is a lateral move financed by tens of millions of taxpayers' money.
Fourth, you sound as though you live in NYC. If so, I envy you. It is Laura and my favorite destination. If you do, then you know that a commute to this site takes almost as long as a commute to Westchester. 'Nuff said.

So, you and I disagree on the future potential of a Tour visit. Wanna make it interesting?

Wait....aren't you the guy that just trashed Lahinch? :o ;D

Some pretty definitive sounding speculative statements...but maybe you have some really good sources. ???

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2013, 01:13:23 PM »
I have a sincere question about the logistics of getting out to play a course like this. In NY it seems that very few people own cars. How would someone get to FP at play? What about people flying in to see it? Is it just as simple as a taxi? What would the cost of a taxi be from mid town or from the airport? This all has to be factored into the expense to play the course. Should this be a concern?

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2013, 01:14:07 PM »
While a classic of public funding waste it too late to worry about that.  The money is gone and ain't ever coming back.  Accepting that I expect the course to be a success and I would be surprised to not see the bodies that host tournaments, PGA Tour, PGA America, USGA falling over themselves to host an event there.  The corporate sponsorship is there, massive population and money galore.

The comments about air noise is an issue but lets not pretend that these bodies don't like money more than anything else.

Public golf, NYC, Jack, Donald behind it and money are a tough combo to bet against.

My limited exposure to Trump and Golf is that it creates a excellent product.

Dan
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 01:16:21 PM by Dan Byrnes »

John Percival

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Progress
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2013, 01:36:42 PM »
Cant get to all ur comments this afternoon, but will soon.
Gonna be some bets flying!
Like those loud jets over FP!  ;)

Oh, and for the record, I loved (loved, not love) the idea of FP. Really loved it. More to follow.