Golfbaan de Swinkelsche - post Buda photos and discussion

[John Mayhugh]

Those construction photos are really interesting.  Thanks for adding them and the additional comments.


Hole 4     Par 4, 411/437
Now things start to become serious, this is the first really difficult hole, a 4.5 where you probably score better if you play it as a par 5












Even with all of the room, this is a tough driving hole.  From the tee, the bunkers appear to be much closer to each other than they actually are.  It seems like the ideal play would be just inside of the left bunker.  We had a lot of discussion on this one as well and found multiple ways to not play the hole.  

There is room on the right side to run your second shot up to the green.  As you can hopefully see from the photo from back right, reaching the green doesn't offer much relief due to a significant spine through the center.  The green is somewhat diagonal from the fairway.

[Mark Pearce]

A really deceptive tee shot.  Those two bunkers look equidistant from the tee and I found it really difficult to play to the right.  A great demonstration of how a visual deception, done well, can trump the information on  a planner.   I think it's almost certain that we'd all have played it better as a three-shotter.

[Frank Pont]

There are two things that happen to everybody playing this hole.

First they think the two fairway bunkers are at the same distance. This is a trick that I gleaned from reading "Visual Intelligence; How we create what we see" by Donald D Hoffman, a book that describes the rules that govern our perception of line, colour, form, depth and motion (should be compulsory reading for every GCA with a brain   ). In short it explains that our mind thinks that objects that are close together visually, are also close in distance.  That's why these bunkers look to be equal distance from the tees, but in reality are 50 m apart.





Second everybody wants to hit the ball over the first left bunker, even though the best line of play is to hit it to the right, because you get a much better angle into the green from the right (only disadvantage being that the shot often is blind). In many cases this ends up with difficult bunker shots or losts ball left in the rough, so far one of the few exceptions was the pro who hit a perfect 300 m drive over the left bunker and then hit a wedge in on a windless day.





If the flag is on the left side of the green it is very difficult to get close to it with anything more than a 7 iron (I often have been hitting 5 irons in with the prevailing wind). The choice then is either to

-  hit it in the bunker before the green,
-  chip back from over the green (which is a very hard shot), or
-  lay up on the right and go for the long up and down chip (often easier).

In some sense the second shot has some of the same issues one faces when playing TOC road hole.

[Joe Perches]

Those construction photos are really interesting.  Thanks for adding them and the additional comments.

We had a lot of discussion on this one as well and found multiple ways to not play the hole.  

Hah!  I too find the photos very interesting.

It does look like the shaping was great fun to do.

Was the shaping crew given free rein to detail in the bumps and bounces or was the plan drawn to .5 centimeter accuracy and the whole thing done via DGPS and robotic machinery?

So far, it looks like a very very nice course.

[Frank Pont]

Joe, there were three approaches we used:

- On most of the holes in the flat areas (1,2,4,5,6,7,8,10,13,14,15,18) we had the dozers first rough in what the GPS plan drawings showed, and then started iterating within what we then had. This saved time and gave the contractor reassurance that we weren't massively going overboard with the cubic yards we were moving

- On the holes in the wooded areas (1,3,9,11,16,17) we did not have a plan but just worked with the landforms that we found, a completely different approach from the flat agricultural land.

- Finally on two holes (11 and 16) I just told lead shaper Conor Walsh to go nuts on the fairways, and I am proud of him  

[John Mayhugh]

First they think the two fairway bunkers are at the same distance. This is a trick that I gleaned from reading "Visual Intelligence; How we create what we see" by Donald D Hoffman, a book that describes the rules that govern our perception of line, colour, form, depth and motion (should be compulsory reading for every GCA with a brain   ). In short it explains that our mind thinks that objects that are close together visually, are also close in distance.  That's why these bunkers look to be equal distance from the tees, but in reality are 50 m apart.

Thanks for sharing this kind of insight with us.  It gives me an additional appreciation for the art.


Hole 5     Par 3, 199/218
The longest of the par 3 holes. Still looking a bit bland because the fescue rough isn't up yet. This was the hardest part of the site visually.
  









Fair to say the fescue grow-in really transforms the look of the hole.  The green and surrounds are almost like an island.


The front right bunker is big and intimidating. Those that make sure to have enough club to carry it are very likely to run off the back.   Is there a more under-used feature in modern golf than the front to back sloping green?

[David Kelly]

First they think the two fairway bunkers are at the same distance. This is a trick that I gleaned from reading "Visual Intelligence; How we create what we see" by Donald D Hoffman, a book that describes the rules that govern our perception of line, colour, form, depth and motion (should be compulsory reading for every GCA with a brain   ). In short it explains that our mind thinks that objects that are close together visually, are also close in distance.  That's why these bunkers look to be equal distance from the tees, but in reality are 50 m apart.

I noticed this in a few places at de Swinkelsche (the left side of #18 comes to mind) as well as at Turfvaert on #16, I think, where I remember standing in the fairway and not being able to discern how close the bunkers were to each other on my lay-up shot.

[Frank Pont]

Made it to Swinkelsche today, made some more detailed pics of the greens and green complexes, hope the undulations etc come across better now.

First the 4th green since I wanted to show how much movement there is on that green. The first picture shows the green from the right side of the fairway, sort of the view a bad lay up shot would have:



The next is the view a good layup shot would have from the left, this clearly shows the undulations on this green



Then a few pictures from behind the green:







And finally two views from the left (wrong) side of the green:

[Frank Pont]

Also wanted to show some different angles on the first green, since so far we only saw the green from the front.

Here are two pics of the green from the back:






These pics nicely show the dangers lurking both behind and on the right front side of the green

[Frank Pont]

The fifth hole was a tough one to design and build in that it (together with the 6th hole) was in the least attractive part of the site, with no features or background to use for the hole. What we did was build a very tough par 3 for the better players, but one that would be a relatively easy bogey for the average player if he or she would think.

This is amplified by the fact that the tees are staggered, whereby the longest tees almost have to hit over the bunker to get on the green, but the front tees have an open entry.





The green is defended by a big baseball glove type bunker on the right, giving many players the illusion they need to hit their ball over it to get to the green. Not a good strategy since it will often lead to one of the most difficult up and downs on this hole....





Given that it is very hard to hit the green, the soundest strategy is to miss the green short left. One still has a tricky up and down to make, but for most players that is achievable.

Through the green from back right to front left runs a ridge which makes cross green putting quite challenging.

[John Mayhugh]

What we did was build a very tough par 3 for the better players, but one that would be a relatively easy bogey for the average player if he or she would think.

This is amplified by the fact that the tees are staggered, whereby the longest tees almost have to hit over the bunker to get on the green, but the front tees have an open entry.

I didn't notice the impact of the staggered tees when playing the hole, but that makes a lot of sense.  Next time I'll have to check out the look from multiple tees.  

[Sean_A]

I know what you mean about the big bunker, Adam.  However, the hole is made by that bunker and it needs to be intimidating.  A lower lip, suggesting that a ball it that bunker might still be put on the green might neuter the hole.  Something that hasn't been mentioned is the way the green runs away from the fairway.  With reasonably firm greens (and the greens were very firm when we played) even a wedge is likely to release, making getting the ball close a challenge.

Mark & Frank

Thanks. You more or less laid it out for me.  I guess I always fancied the idea of seeing more fairway left, right or long of a green then short of it sometimes and wonder why archies are thinking more sideways than merely a chipping zone around greens.  I guess the idea has stayed with me since seeing Sea Headrig - very cool I think.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Frank - Really like the look of the movement on that 4th green... Very nice.

Ally

[John Mayhugh]

Hole 6     Par 4, 351/368
Somewhat of a breather before two more hard holes come. Client wanted the big oak to stay on the fairway, it definitely plays a big role in the strategy. Maybe do not plant a new one if it dies  . Very difficult undulating raised green.








[/quote]

Frank,
How did having to keep the tree in the fairway affect your design decisions on the hole?

[Frank Pont]

Frank - Really like the look of the movement on that 4th green... Very nice.

Ally

Thanks, funny enough the work we did, you at Carne and I at Swinkelsche are at about the opposite extreme ends of the spectrum we architects will ever work in.

You had to find strategy and playable holes in an extreme dune landscape. I had to create credible landforms around the holes and strategies I thought made sense on a flat site.

[Frank Pont]

The sixth hole in practice actually plays a lot harder that I thought originally. I brought a dutch pro who plays on the secondary US Tour here who thought hole 6 was the hardest on the course.....

Reason is the shot into the green and the role the tree in the middle of the fairway plays

First some shots of the tee. It is very risky for longer hitters to use a driver off the tee, due to the water left that is in reach, plus the risk of ending in front of the tree. The best option is a 3 wood aimed between the tree and the right side bunker.





If you are to far left this is what you see:



The green is probably one of the hardest to hit into of the whole course (10 is another), especially from the right. You do NOT want to miss the green on the left, which is almost automatically in the water. And the greens has some very stong rolls from front to back, so distance control is important as well. Finally there is not backstop behind the green to give players a good sense of distance (the trees behind are some 100 m away).

Here some detailed pics of the green from various angles:

Front





Left





Right



Behind





Answering your question John, I am not at all in favour of having trees in the middle of the fairway, I guess a bias I got from working a lot with Colt designs (as you probably are aware Colt called trees a fluky and obnoxious hazard). Originally I had a centre bunker in my design there. But when the client really nicely asked if they could please keep the nice oak, I relented, using the Simpson principle that once a round you are allowed to deviate from your principles.... funny enough it does play a very intriguing role on this hole. However if it ever dies I will gladly put the envisioned bunker in after all.....

[Frank Pont]

Some more detailed green pictures of holes 2 and 3.

Hole 2.



Just right of the green, the position of the best layup shot



Looking back at the green



Looking at the green and hole 3 from behind green 2



Looking back at hole 2 from behind the green


Hole 3.




Looking at green 3 from just behind the large bunker'




View on the green if you miss the bunkers on the right side of the fairway




View on the green if you miss the bunkers on the left side of the fairway




View of the green if you are stymied behind the greens on the left




View of the green if you drive left of the green




View of the green from right behind

[Ulrich Mayring]

Is the course on sandy soil? For me it's hard to tell from the pictures.

Ulrich

[Adam Lawrence]

Is the course on sandy soil? For me it's hard to tell from the pictures.

Ulrich

It's pure sand, going down a long, long way. The big lake exists because they funded the project by selling a huge quantity of sand into the construction industry. It isn't perfect quality sand though - when it gets wet, it clumps together a great deal. Grains very fine, I believe.

[Frank Pont]

Ulrich,

Course is built on pure sand, most of it very good quality. At some points of the excavation there were thin layers of loamy material, but these were not used in the main areas of the golf course, but rather underneath hills and mounds.

On top of that the owners drained the course as if it was built on clay, more than I thought necessary, but they were clear they wanted it to be problem free with water. The course therefore is very dry under virtually all weather conditions


Adam,

the issue you mention only plays a role with some of the bunker sand, which was one of the last batches that were taken out of the lake, and indeed contained more fines than you would like for wet bunker conditions.


Here a picture showing the scale of the excavations of the lake Adam mentioned. (we used a 150 ton excavator!)

[Joe Perches]

On top of that the owners drained the course as if it was built on clay, more than I thought necessary, but they were clear they wanted it to be problem free with water. The course therefore is very dry under virtually all weather conditions

I believe I haven't seen a single standing water drain grate in any of the pictures.

Does all the drainage move towards the lakes/ponds?

[Mark Pearce]

Swinkelsche was, by some distance, the firmest course we played in the Netherlands.  When it's mature and can be maintained faster it will be really challenging.  Even now it illustrates that firm contours are a far more interesting challenge than fast flat surfaces.

I didn't play the 6th well, though I recall sinking a long putt to "rescue" double bogey.  It's a tough tee shot unless you can work the ball left to right.  If I played it again I might not use driver off the tee.  A tough green to hit and plenty going on once on it.  I didn't mind the tree but perhaps it adds a level of added difficulty to a tee shot that's already hard enough?

[Frank Pont]

On top of that the owners drained the course as if it was built on clay, more than I thought necessary, but they were clear they wanted it to be problem free with water. The course therefore is very dry under virtually all weather conditions

I believe I haven't seen a single standing water drain grate in any of the pictures.

Does all the drainage move towards the lakes/ponds?

Joe,

where possible we used surface drainage, however there are I believe still around 50 water drain grates on the course, but except for 4 that are on the fairway all others are far away from the fairways in (semi)rough areas.

the drainage goes to the stream that meanders through the property, the ponds, the lake and ditches surrounding the property

[Mark Pearce]

Looking forward to discussing the 7th.

I'm surprised one or two more of the crowd that played Swinkelsche before BUDA haven't commented on this thread.  Come on guys, what did you make of one of the course?

[Thomas Dai]

Frank,

Nice to view this level of detail including photos taken from the sides and rear of greens. Gives a finer appreciation of a hole IMO. Good to see the construction photos as well.

I hope the tree lines are not permitted to encroach close to the lines of play in the years to come.

All the best