[Patrick_Mucci]

F&F.

Fall play seems to bring out Faster and Firmer conditions.
Less rain, less humidity, less stress on the turf, so why is there a resistance to get conditions F&F through out the year as much as Mother Nature will permit.

I think I figured it out.

F&F accentuates errors which in turn inflates scores, and golfers want lower, not higher handicaps.
Well, at least most golfers want to improve.

So, is F&F it's own worst enemy ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

It can't be cheap, in $$$ and angst, to achieve it and water is easier to apply than the diligence it takes to maintain it.

 

[David_Elvins]

F&F accentuates errors which in turn inflates scores, and golfers want lower, not higher handicaps.
Well, at least most golfers want to improve.

So, is F&F it's own worst enemy ?

I think a lot depends on the course.  A course like Royal Melbourne or TOC that was designed to be played firm is not much harder when firm than when 'soft'.  

No doubt courses that were not designed with the same width or wide entrances to greens will play much harder when firm.  So I think that poor architecture is probably the main enemy of firm an fast conditions.  

[Carl Johnson]

F&F.

Fall play seems to bring out Faster and Firmer conditions.
Less rain, less humidity, less stress on the turf, so why is there a resistance to get conditions F&F through out the year as much as Mother Nature will permit.

I think I figured it out.

F&F accentuates errors which in turn inflates scores, and golfers want lower, not higher handicaps.
Well, at least most golfers want to improve.

So, is F&F it's own worst enemy ?

I am not going to let go of this.  The obsession with "What's your handicap" kills the fun of F&F (and more).  I am not in Pat's "most golfers" category.  I do not care what my HC is (except that it's accurate according to USGA guidelines).  I just want to win my match, and, sorry, but F&F gives me an advantage (at least I think so, which is all that counts).

Beyond F&F, what about tough set-ups?  Don't want those either?  I played Sunday with my usual suspects, after the final round of the club championship was over.  The course was set up tough for the club championship.  Our four-ball all played over our HCs - there was a lot of head hanging.  But two of us won (moi included) and two of us lost.  Why should not that be the end of the story (and the beginning of the next)?

[Andrew Buck]

F&F accentuates errors which in turn inflates scores, and golfers want lower, not higher handicaps.
Well, at least most golfers want to improve.

So, is F&F it's own worst enemy ?

No doubt courses that were not designed with the same width or wide entrances to greens will play much harder when firm.  So I think that poor architecture is probably the main enemy of firm an fast conditions.  

I personally like wider fairways and multiple routes, but I'd hesitate to call any design without them as poor architecture.  

[Lenny Polakoff]

That is making an assumption that F&F equates to higher scoring for the average golfer.  Not so sure about that.  An argument can be made that conditions that allow an average golfer to drive a ball 30-40 yards further promote lower, not higher scores.

Pros and low hcp, no question, but I have to think your mid and high hcp golfer will score better on average hitting approach shots with significantly less club regardless of the firmness of the green.  I also think many a golfer enjoy playing under F&F conditions for this reason even if they have no idea why

[Michael Whitaker]

...so why is there a resistance to get conditions F&F through out the year as much as Mother Nature will permit.

I think I figured it out.

F&F accentuates errors which in turn inflates scores, and golfers want lower, not higher handicaps.
Well, at least most golfers want to improve.

So, is F&F it's own worst enemy ?

Nope. Green sells... and, green is softer and slower. Ask any club/course general manager what feature of a golf course most rings the cash register and he will tell you... well maintained green grass!

[Bill_McBride]

What happened to the "down with brown" campaign?

I thought that was a good program, especially in terms of water conservation.  

If you think the 1973 and 1979 energy crunches with long gas lines were a bitch (and maybe most people today have forgotten them), wait for the acute shortages of water later this century.  

As a tell my Canadian friends, the future wars won't be personal, just business!

[William_G]

F+F is hard to design and implement in most of the NE where the golf season is limited to half the year.

TOC, Bandon Dunes, etc... where golf is year round, the case for F+F is a good one.

while folks like to see low scores, they have all year to figure it out

thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lenny,

While I'd agree with you at the tee end, that high handicaps get more distance, F&F at the green end offsets the gain as they're less skilled and unable to handle the precision needed at the green end.

Bill,

Agree, the cost of water will drive courses to F&F, but, as others have said, "green" rules most courses.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

Agree, the cost of water will drive courses to F&F, but, as others have said, "green" rules most courses.

I don't think the cost of water will be as big an issue as availability.  I think paspalum will become more and more important in the future.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

As availability decreases, the cost will increase.

I've heard mixed reviews on Paspalum.

Some like it, others don't.

I know that many clubs in Florida created test swatches with different grasses, including Paspalum.

I don't know that that many clubs have elected to go with it.

What's the grass at Streamsong ?

[William_G]

one cost that is high is the cost of maintaining golf properties in both FL and the NE for the same folks who golf seasonally in 2 locations

additionally the golf that is played seasonally, by and large, is not F+F

[Tom_Doak]

What's the grass at Streamsong ?

Streamsong is old-school 419 Bermudagrass on the tees and fairways, and MiniVerde on the greens.

We are a long way from either salt water or a supply of effluent, which are the main drivers of Paspalum.  And though Paspalum is laudable in many areas, it is not especially conducive to firm and fast conditions, which were desired at Streamsong.

[David_Tepper]

"That is making an assumption that F&F equates to higher scoring for the average golfer.  Not so sure about that.  An argument can be made that conditions that allow an average golfer to drive a ball 30-40 yards further promote lower, not higher scores."

I agree with Lenny P. on this. As a short-hitting, low-teen handicap, I know I post my best scores on the Olympic Club courses in June, when the courses are at their most F&F.

In addition to playing shorter, F&F often gives me a chance to bump & run the ball onto the green from 20-50 yards away, rather than always forcing me to hit a pitch shot. As Jim Flick used to say, 40 yard pitch shots are invariably the weakest part of most high-handicappers games.  

[jvisser]

I love F&F. Just this summer I had experience at both ends of the spectrum.
In the UK I played, Royal St Georges, Huntercombe, Oxford GC and Frilford Heath and
Woking all very F&F, creating different courses and calling upon your imagination to get
round the course with a good score, which for me works as I hit it relatively short
for my 4 hcap, but my short game is good. I really enjoyed this experience
as the whole course would be firm as opposed to what I experience in Holland at
e.g. Noordwijk, my homeclub and the Kennemer (discussed in other threads).

Then I got back to Holland and played Herkenbosch, a tree lined course
in the south east of Holland. This course was watered too much.
Every shot would basically stop where it landed, creating a one-dimensional
game, with for me a good score as I joined a friend of the yellow tees.
Even tough the score was enjoyable the challenge was much less.

I do understand the general desire for green and soft; for the majority
of players it looks more appealing (most courses are presented to the
world in their greenest appearance on any website or other media,
so in their mind, this is how it should be.)

In addition, for the lesser player, the ball sitting up makes it easier to play.
Maybe the majority of the players would actually prefer to hit from the semi-rough
all the time...
Also looking at TV and seeing the pro's hit shots with backspin, the average Joe,
will be happy to see a shot stop quickly on the green, giving them a feel of
having hit a good shot, even tough the only thing stopping the ball were the
ultra wet and soft greens.

Maybe I'm wrong and I do hope I am, but I have the impression that the
majority of the players just wants to get around a course as easily as possible
requiring soft and green courses and a tiny minority actually wants to have
his game and creativity challenged by some serious F&F.

Ciao,

 Jan

[Peter Pallotta]

My greens in regulation go down as the turf gets firmer and faster, and the slight fade or strong draw off the tee ends up either too far right or too far left. That said, I happily play those conditions when I find them -- F &F is indeed more fun and more aesthetically pleasing, but it makes the game harder. I'm a bad enough golfer that I don''t mind too much being even worse -- but I've played F &F with many a golfer with delusions of mediocrity who gets more and more frustrated as the round progresses.  

Peter

[JESII]

Agreed Peter and it ties right back to your ball control thread.

[A.G._Crockett]

Patrick,
IMO in the South on bermuda grass the situation is the opposite.  Our courses play longer this time of year as we near the growing season, and handicaps go up, not down.  The fairways are lush and soft, and the rough is brutally high and thick; at times the maintenance staffs can't keep up with mowing schedules because of pm thunderstorms.  

This time of year, I have to hit driver more and 4W less off the tee, and the rough is essentially a one-shot penalty.  Fewer GIR's, higher scores, higher handicaps.  Courses here play longer and tougher until the weather gets cold at night and the bermuda goes dormant.

F&F for us comes in the first part of winter when the bermuda goes dormant but before things get soggy, then again in spring and early summer when the bermuda comes out but before the heat really builds and the turf goes crazy again.

[C. Squier]

F&F.

Fall play seems to bring out Faster and Firmer conditions.
Less rain, less humidity, less stress on the turf, so why is there a resistance to get conditions F&F through out the year as much as Mother Nature will permit.

I think I figured it out.

F&F accentuates errors which in turn inflates scores, and golfers want lower, not higher handicaps.
Well, at least most golfers want to improve.

So, is F&F it's own worst enemy ?

I am not going to let go of this.  The obsession with "What's your handicap" kills the fun of F&F (and more).  I am not in Pat's "most golfers" category.  I do not care what my HC is (except that it's accurate according to USGA guidelines).  I just want to win my match, and, sorry, but F&F gives me an advantage (at least I think so, which is all that counts).

Beyond F&F, what about tough set-ups?  Don't want those either?  I played Sunday with my usual suspects, after the final round of the club championship was over.  The course was set up tough for the club championship.  Our four-ball all played over our HCs - there was a lot of head hanging.  But two of us won (moi included) and two of us lost.  Why should not that be the end of the story (and the beginning of the next)?

For a guy who doesn't care about handicaps, it sure seems like you play a lot of handicap adjusted matches

[Nigel Islam]

I agree with David and Lenny. I think the perception is that F&F makes it harder, but I'm not sure that is necessarily true. Of course it is perhaps this perception that leads to the extra watering. If lower scores were the goal then I would water the greens a lot, and keep the rest of the course dry as a bone. (Especially the run up areas to the green)

[Lou_Duran]

Lenny,

While I'd agree with you at the tee end, that high handicaps get more distance, F&F at the green end offsets the gain as they're less skilled and unable to handle the precision needed at the green end.

Bill,

Agree, the cost of water will drive courses to F&F, but, as others have said, "green" rules most courses.

For the short but straight player (most of these are not high handicappers), firm fairways are helpful.  I've yet to see a high handicapper who has a good short game, and F & F greens separate the men from the boys (those who can control the spin on the ball).   F&F green complexes are conducive to high scores, long rounds, and not-so-happy golfers.  Unlike the gentleman who posted that he doesn't care about his handicap, the vast majority of core golfers are focused on it.

The slope on firm fairways can also be an issue, particularly with wiry Bermuda roughs.  A routing with a lot of side slopes, even with a good irrigation system and a thoughtful superintendent, gravity will channel both the ball and the water toward the lower spots.  Shots that run through the firmer fairways often end up in impossible lies (I had two this Sunday, a couple feet from the fairway in rough less than 1" long).

We have been programmed for thousands of years to like green- one of the reasons why golf course lots often fetch a 50-100%+ premium even though a majority of the buyers may not play golf.  I am not convinced that the water availability issue will be that critical, though I am sure that price will be.  I played at a club not too long ago known for its playing conditions that appears to understand the dichotomy- the course was relatively lush, while the maintenance staff wore "Think F&F" tee shirts.  Like so many political things today, appearance is much more important than practice (substance).

[Sean_A]

I don't know about others, but I find f&f conditions more difficult for approach shots.  Trying to decide on the landing zone can be quite tricky. And of course, there are always holes which are not really designed for kick ups - then one has to figure out the best miss in case he doesn't pull the ideal shot off.  Driving is generally easier, but there are times when bunkers and other features can catch me out.  So yes, many times the lay-up has to be strongly considered.  

A course would have to be quite long (for me ~6600 is getting into quite long territory) to make it more difficult when soft. I don't play many long courses and when I do encounter them I look for ways to move a tee or two.  That said, in recent years I can only think of one instance where the course was too long for me and just a handful where I thought the course was more very difficult because of firmness.  This year, Perranporth was crazy firm for the style of architecture.  St Enodoc was very firm, but it didn't cause a problem except for a shot here and there - just about perfect I would say, but achieved only very occasionally.  

Below is a look at Perranporth.  One can see that trying to get the meld of firmness between the greens and fairways is impossible unless the fairway is watered.  Even so, the greens were very firm despite their colour, but not nearly as slick as the fairways.
 

Ciao

[A.G._Crockett]

Lenny,

While I'd agree with you at the tee end, that high handicaps get more distance, F&F at the green end offsets the gain as they're less skilled and unable to handle the precision needed at the green end.

Bill,

Agree, the cost of water will drive courses to F&F, but, as others have said, "green" rules most courses.

For the short but straight player (most of these are not high handicappers), firm fairways are helpful.  I've yet to see a high handicapper who has a good short game, and F & F greens separate the men from the boys (those who can control the spin on the ball).   F&F green complexes are conducive to high scores, long rounds, and not-so-happy golfers.  Unlike the gentleman who posted that he doesn't care about his handicap, the vast majority of core golfers are focused on it.

The slope on firm fairways can also be an issue, particularly with wiry Bermuda roughs.  A routing with a lot of side slopes, even with a good irrigation system and a thoughtful superintendent, gravity will channel both the ball and the water toward the lower spots.  Shots that run through the firmer fairways often end up in impossible lies (I had two this Sunday, a couple feet from the fairway in rough less than 1" long).

We have been programmed for thousands of years to like green- one of the reasons why golf course lots often fetch a 50-100%+ premium even though a majority of the buyers may not play golf.  I am not convinced that the water availability issue will be that critical, though I am sure that price will be.  I played at a club not too long ago known for its playing conditions that appears to understand the dichotomy- the course was relatively lush, while the maintenance staff wore "Think F&F" tee shirts.  Like so many political things today, appearance is much more important than practice (substance).

Lou,
To play devil's advocate, consider the handicapping system.  The biggest factor (though of course not the only factor) in determining hole handicaps is length; par 5's are basically lower handicap holes compared to par 3's because lesser golfer struggle with additional shots and longer clubs.

So now the course is F&F, and the high handicapper gets an additional 20 yds. of roll on his typical drive, and so forth through the bag.  He now hits shorter clubs for the next shot, gets the ball closer to the hole at least some of the time, etc.  I do NOT mean to say that F&F is an equalizer; it may actually widen the gap because the low handicapper can control the ball and benefit even more from the additional distance.  But I don't see any reason to think that F&F makes courses harder for lesser players.

While the F&F course causes his ball to run into trouble at times, the fact is that he's in trouble a lot anyway and he can manage trouble at 150 out than at 170 out.  Since his short game isn't very good in the first place, F&F around the greens doesn't hurt him much, or at least as much as he gains from the additional distance.

[Will MacEwen]

My course has constricted landing areas.  Not only does it play narrow off the tee, but in some places the doglegs you have to carry it a certain distance, and then hit the brakes to avoid trouble.  When the course is firm, landing in these areas becomes much more exacting and I would say it plays tougher in that regard.  

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