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Richard Choi

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 4th hole posted
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2013, 11:36:44 AM »
Hole #4, Par 4, 420 yards

The rhythm of the course quickens as the challenge is ever so raised with this solid par 4.



The tee shot is a bit deceiving as reverse cant is not really visible and the fairway looks quite inviting. There are OB and trees to the left, which makes hitting the required draw a bit more unnerving.



This shot shows the reverse cant of the fairway pretty well.



If you successfully negotiate the turn, you are presented with a downhill approach to the green that begs for a run up shot.



From the reverse, you can see more clearly, how much downhill the approach is and how wonderfully the fairway feeds to the green.



If I had my ways, I would get rid of at least one of the bunkers that are guarding the front of this green. This hole SHOULD be played with a low running shot that lands 15-20 yards short of the green that gently guides the ball to the middle of the green. However, with the opening so narrow, that is probably not a shot that most will even attempt, which is too bad as I just love this greensite.

This hole probably gets my vote for the most underrated hole on the course.

John Percival

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 4th hole posted
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2013, 01:45:26 PM »
R,
You noted the downhill, with the opening in the green's middle. What also makes the approach tricky is the prevailing tailwind. Like most greens at OH, long means a touchy chip or putt, so below the hole is best. But the downhill, downwind and flighted approach does make this hole a sleeper. Especially with the BRUTAL fifth hole to follow.
Like the first hole, this green offers a mix of pins from kind (front right, will bounce on and settle in the hollow) to harsh (middle left).
A very good change to the hole occurred when the forward tee was moved from left to center, thus softening the angle on the tee ball. Same at 5 and 12.

Joe Hancock

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 4th hole posted
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2013, 08:47:58 PM »
Glad those forward tees are working out well, John.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Percival

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 4th hole posted
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2013, 08:04:38 AM »
Joe,
They work well here and at 5 because the reverse cant makes it almost impossible for the Ladies' (who account for 99% of the fwd tee play) to keep tee balls of length in the fairway. As shown in the overhead pic of 4 (taken before the tee was moved), the angle points at the cart in the fwy and the slope from the left pushes balls further to the right. My wife, Laura, can work her tee ball and could handle the old tee, but the new one (almost on a straight line forward of the cart path's end) makes tee balls more playable for the rest of the girls, thus improving the golf experience and the pace of play.

Richard Choi

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 5th hole posted
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2013, 12:24:32 PM »
Hole #5, Par 4, 426 yards



This gentle dogleg left hole is probably one of the toughest holes at OH.



The toughness comes from many awkward components. First, from the tee, the landing area is hidden and a bit more left than it looks from the tee. As you can see from above, there is a gentle swale that rises just short of the landing area which hides the turn that the fairway takes.



The awkwardness of the tee shot is compounded by the fact that the fairway stops about 280 yards out from the tee with a small creek running across it. The play here is to lay up with a fairway wood. However, if you lay up too short, you will have an awkward downhill lie to an uphill green, as Mr Schmidt is demonstrating here.



If you do challenge the creek and are successful, you are rewarded with a flat lie and a relatively simple approach to the green which is mostly hidden.




If you negotiate well with all the awkwardness, you are presented with one FANTASTIC green with unbelievable movements and interest.



This is one bold green with scalloped edges that feed the ball in all directions. I can spend hours here just putting and be entertained.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 12:27:39 PM by Richard Choi »

Joe Hancock

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 5th hole posted
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2013, 03:38:43 PM »
The green complex is much improved w/ a wider approach into the left side of the green, and the removal of a very large tree from the right side. More friendly to member play for sure.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Brent Carlson

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 4th hole posted
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2013, 11:36:23 PM »
Rich - interesting observation regarding the run up shot on 4.  Does anyone know if both bunkers are original Ross?  In the picture the green appears to be sloping left to right, which would feed a ground shot to the right side.

Regarding number 5 it's the site of the famous TC Chen double chip, which most of you know.  He was running away with the US Open while taming the monster until this unfortunate event.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lvp-pPfJEU

Great pictures Rich.  I'm enjoying this tour very much.  


If I had my ways, I would get rid of at least one of the bunkers that are guarding the front of this green. This hole SHOULD be played with a low running shot that lands 15-20 yards short of the green that gently guides the ball to the middle of the green. However, with the opening so narrow, that is probably not a shot that most will even attempt, which is too bad as I just love this greensite.

This hole probably gets my vote for the most underrated hole on the course.
[/quote]
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 11:40:34 PM by Brent Carlson »

John Percival

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 5th hole posted
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2013, 11:36:33 AM »
R,
Number 5 is a great challenge. As you mentioned, the approach is usually off a downhill lie. That lie also has a bit of hanging to it, so approaches tend to be thin and cutting and the green sits above the player by about 8-10 feet. Any tee ball left is stymied by trees and those three bunkers right are very deep (and you usually have a downhill lie from them too!)

This is one of those greens where a large tree (front, right) was recently removed. A large branch of that tree hung over the green, as if the approach wasn't already daunting. Much better hole without it.

As Joe mentioned, the opening to the green has been widened and the fronting bunker is about half as deep as it was before the reno.
Though the opening is wider, about 2/3rds of that opening kicks left, thus making any pin center or farther right a challenging target. Any approach missing the green on the short side is WAY nasty and anything long is way dead.

Oh yeah, the Championship tee is 490. With a 270 carry over that ridge

Richard Choi

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 5th hole posted
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2013, 11:35:29 AM »
Hole #6, Par 4, 353 yards

A fun little uphill par 4 with yet another interesting green.



The question on the tee is whether or not to attack the hole and try to get past the bunkers on the left and the trees on the right or to lay up short of it.



If you do lay up, your views to the green compromised by the bunkers and the slope. Whether or not that is worth trying to carry the bunker and the trees, I am not sure. I probably would lay up every time. I would love to hear more about the strategy here from the members.



As you get closer to the green stacking of the bunkers become quite intricate.



The green is skinny and long with severe back to fron slope. This hole is designed to test your mettle with the wedges. There is little room for error in distance or direction.


If you have a wedge in your hands, trying to get to the back pin here would not be easy as it would require very exacting distance control with minimal spin.

John Percival

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 6th hole posted
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2013, 05:02:29 PM »
R,
Your photos are great because they show the holes before (the overheads) and the present (ground level, face on). It is easy to see how trees have been thinned and, in the case of #6, how fescue has been added to the course. The fescue is removed from normal play, but acts as a natural compliment to the course and a great visual nuance.

In response to ur question about the tee ball at #6, it matters greatly where the tees are set. The staff does a great job of moving tees so that many holes play differently, both distance wise and strategy wise. Perhaps the sixth is the best example. The blues will move from 355 to 305. That makes that neck beyond the second fairway bunker quite a different play. From the longer tee, it is about 280 to carry past that neck, slightly uphill and often with a quartering breeze into and from the left. Thus, most people (including me) cant make the carry and choose to lay-up. However, just laying up still demands some consideration, as the three trees on the right will stymie any push more than a yard or two off the fwy. If one lays back a bit more, then an approach can be hoisted over the trees if need be. Of course, the two fwy bunkers left leave a difficult approach...uphill and over a greenside bunker.
 
An interesting note about the tee shot, and I thought it was just me, is that a large number of members have difficulty hitting the fairway. It may be due to the large shag bark tree that sits along the left about 150 yards off the tee. Perhaps it confuses or intimidates, but the tee shot here is by far my most vexing on the course. In fact, it is so bad that Laura often turns away during my shot. Fair weather wife!

One of the problems when bashing a tee ball past the neck is the 3/4 wedge shot into the pitched green. For many, the shot is more difficult than a full wedge from farther back. And ur right, the back pin is quite a test to get near, over a small mound built into the rise, with bunkers on either side and long being super ugly.
 

Brent Carlson

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 6th hole posted
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2013, 10:33:42 PM »
John,

The fescue look is really good.  It's much better than wall to wall green.  I would also like to see the non-native blue spruces go in favor of white pine trees - to give it that true Michigan look.  Overall OH looks great, much more open and rugged than when I was there in 2008.

John Percival

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 6th hole posted
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2013, 12:46:53 AM »
B,
Agree w/ you on the trees. As previously mentioned, Steve Cook is righting some past wrongs and doing it very well. Without knowing the details, some of our pines are looking ill and will probably be lost. Too bad it's not those evergreens.
Played today w/ GM in a grounds crew/member outing and there are plans to add more fescue. To date, it has been done very well and w/ great consideration.

Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 6th hole posted
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2013, 08:27:45 AM »
Richard, I am really enjoying your tour - your photos looks great (and as previously mentioned) they are great when compared to the satellite images.  You did a great job capturing the course and many of the little subtleties - they appear to pull off something difficult these days - a great course for everyday member's play combined with the ability to dial-up the difficulty to challenge the world's best when needed.  Chris.

Richard Choi

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 6th hole posted
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2013, 01:34:48 PM »
Thanks Chris! I hope you will chime in with some comments as we need more voices!

Richard Choi

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 7th hole posted
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2013, 01:35:35 PM »
Hole #7, Par 4, 398 yards

The first hole with water!


I don't know what it is about the water holes at Oakland Hills, but they just look very odd to me from the tee. I can't quite describe what I find odd, but I just don't feel comfortable looking at them. Otherwise, this is a pretty straight forward dogleg right where the slope runs with the dogleg.



Perhaps it is because the fairway cants towards the water significantly. As you can see here, having a draw shot to hit into this fairway is a good thing. Water is definitely in play and your first priority is to hit away from it.



If you are a long hitter and willing to challenge the water a bit, you can almost hit past the water and get towards the speed slot that will bounce the ball forward.



If you do get lucky and get a good bounce, you have a very short approach to the raised green. The tree in front left of the green will compromise shots if you were too determined to hit away from the water.



The green is well bunkered and protected as most holes are.



I am having a bit of hard time remembering the internal contours on this green. I hope John can fill us with some details.


John Percival

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 7th hole posted
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2013, 02:55:25 PM »
R,
Have only a few minutes (will post more later), but some overview on #7.
First of all, it is my favorite hole of the 36 at OH. Why? Later.
The green is entirely 'new', as in RTJ. The previous green was left and short of the existing green. In the overhead pic, the old Ross green is located where the four evergreens sit at the pic's left (between the cart paths.) The move became necessary because of the lengthened 8th hole. The 'new' 8th tee is the long tee that sits below the four fwy bunkers. Remember that 'new' was in 1950.
More to come. Gotta go play!

Richard Choi

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 7th hole posted
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2013, 02:58:51 PM »
The green is entirely 'new', as in RTJ.

That explains why I couldn't remember....

Joe Perches

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 7th hole posted
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2013, 03:00:31 PM »
Hole #7, Par 4, 398 yards







Pity about the tree shadows here.
Any constraints on removing the tree/trees that cause them?
I suspect the grass would appreciate it.
So would my eyes given the sightline approaches to to the green complex and what seems to be difficulty picking out the target surrounds from the shadows.

John Percival

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 7th hole posted
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2013, 09:13:36 AM »
R,
Am back. Regarding the seventh green contours...first of all, the green sits beyond a small rise, so shots flying and landing short will not advance. However, a well-played running shot (especially from just short of the green) will run up nicely. There is a small trough/funnel at the green's middle that drains to the left and the back pin is on a crest that rises from the green's mid-point. While the rise seems gentle, anyone who is putting from the green's rear is usually shocked at the run out and faces a much longer than hoped for second putt.
The  large tree at green's left does shade the green, and like most large/close trees, is an agronomical (is that a word?) problem. A pity is was not planted about 7 paces further left. But that planting was a long time ago.
As to why the hole is my favorite...
...first of all, the shapes of the tee ball and the approach balance - tee ball bends right and approach favors a draw. Second, the hole plays into the prevailing wind, testing the player's accuracy and solid ball striking capacity. The pond adds just the right amount of pucker factor, yet is not so foreboding to overwhelm (in fact, when the hole is played at full length, 449, it is hard for me to reach the pond, thus making the tee ball less frightening.) BTW, the maint crew sets it to play from 449 down to 360. A nice change of pace from day to day. The pond was enlarged more towards the tee by Rees and also widened. An interesting note is that the two water holes at OH are both on the 7th hole of their respective sides.

But the biggest reason for my affection is the strategic/heroic nature of the tee shot. You are right that a draw can be played into the left-to-right slope. Additionally, a fade also works as a play. In fact, a fade played aggressively and successfully toward the fwy's right (and close to the hazard's edge) will reward the player with a relatively flat lie and a kind angle into the green. Tee balls played safely to the left (and avoiding the deep fwy bunkers) leave the player with a hanging lie into the green which is angled from 11 to 5 o'clock. Greenside bunker shots from the two right bunkers tend to roll out, thus making them a finesse test, while the left bunker extends back and can leave a yanked approach with a long bunker save.  

The final element that makes the hole so great is that it is the start of a 5 hole stretch (especially in tournament play) that are huge tests. And of the five, it may just be the easiest. So, stand on the tee thinking that!

Note: the pitch of the fwy at 7 is quite obvious to all. However, many players dont realize that most approaches from all the fairways are from uneven lies, making the shots even more of a challenge. The hole that is the exception-#14. A hole which is just plain nasty. A challenging par 5.  :P
Er, par 4  :-[

Richard Choi

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 8th hole posted
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2013, 11:49:06 AM »
Hole #8, Par 5, 475 yards

This short uphill par 5 is definitely a hole that you can be aggressive in search of a birdie.



Comparing to the overhead shot above, it looks like they have removed some trees on the right (which is great!). With the green opening up from the right side, you definitely want to favor that side, but you must negotiate the giant fairway bunker that guards it.



The fairway cants left to right as you can see here, making the ideal approach (draw) to the green more difficult.



If you decide to lay up, there is a flat area about 100 yards short of the green that is your target before heading up to the raised green.



The tree in the left front of the green really does not come into play, but these nasty bunkers do.



As you would expect in a short par 5, the green here is severely sloped from back to front. The distance control is at premium yet again.



The pin here is in a relatively easier spot. The plateaus in the back left and right would be very difficult to hit close to. The lower bowl in the front is probably where majority will end up on approaches.


Richard Choi

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 8th hole posted
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2013, 11:50:07 AM »
John, we should take this show on the road. I can serve'em and you can knock'em down.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 8th hole posted
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2013, 12:16:54 PM »
Great posts Richard, and unlike some I love pictures.
Obviously the course has been nipped and tucked alot over the years for Opens,vPGA's and Ryder Cups but does it still play like a Ross..and feel like a Ross?

If you have played OakHill, how would you compare on the relative Rossiness of the courses ?

Richard Choi

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 8th hole posted
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2013, 12:35:13 PM »
Michael, I have only played so many Ross courses, so I don't know if I can speak about this definitely, but one of my favorite all time course is Plainfield. My understanding is that with the recent Hanse restoration, Plainfield is back to its original Ross roots and I believe it.

To me, Oakland Hill feels very much like Plainfield. The routing and the greens have very similar rhythm and feel to them. They definitely share a common DNA. Where they do differ is mostly in bunkering. For my taste, Plainfield bunkering is far more interesting and strategic AND fun to play due to its variety and more frequent use of cross bunkers. If Hanse ever does the same thing he did at Plainfield to Oakland Hills, I can easily imagine that this would be THE best course I have ever played.

I have never played Oak Hill, so I can't comment on that.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 8th hole posted
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2013, 12:39:31 PM »
Marvelous answer, thank you

Brent Carlson

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Re: Oakland Hills CC - South (1918, Ross) - Photo Tour - 8th hole posted
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2013, 12:11:12 AM »
Donald Ross said of Oakland Hills - "I rarely find a piece of property so well suited for a golf course."

Here's some insight as to what the layout looked like prior to the RTJ redesign:


P1010820 by bcumich, on Flickr

#1

P1010806 by bcumich, on Flickr

#2 & #3(RC birdie hole)

P1010807 by bcumich, on Flickr

#4

P1010808 by bcumich, on Flickr

#5 & #6

P1010809 by bcumich, on Flickr

#7

P1010810 by bcumich, on Flickr

#8

P1010811 by bcumich, on Flickr


Let's hear more insight.  OH is worthy of it.  I'll post the rest as Richard progresses.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 12:25:19 AM by Brent Carlson »