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Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Johnny Miller
« on: August 05, 2003, 06:28:56 AM »
  Anyone heard of the Johnny Miller design Beacon Hill Golf Club?  It's just outside of Washington D.C. near Leesburg, VA. The website has it as a 27 hole facility that is open for play. (www.beaconhillva.com)

  Has Johnny done much design work in the past?

-SBR

A_Clay_Man

Re:Johnny Miller
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2003, 09:04:02 AM »
I have no idea how much JM has designed but his name is on a few courses like the badlands in vegas and eagle ridge in gilroy ca.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Johnny Miller
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2003, 11:00:07 AM »
SBR,

Johnny Miller has gotten beaten up here in the past. Try a search for some old threads. I have never played any of his courses, but was surprised as he sounds like he appreciates the old stuff such as Shinnecock and Prarie Dunes where he is a member.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Johnny Miller
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2003, 02:37:39 PM »
Other courses that Johnny Miller Design have been involved with in Northern California include - the Metropolitan (Oakland), Whitney Oaks (east of Sacramento), Stone Tree (Novato) and the Bridges (Danville).  
Feedback has been mixed so far. I have only played (and liked)
the Metropolitan.

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Johnny Miller
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2003, 07:13:41 PM »
  From the responses, is it safe to say Johnny has not done much work on the east coast? Does he just lend his name to the project or does he get his hands dirty.  I'm suprised he hasn't mentioned his architect experience more while on the air.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Johnny Miller
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2003, 08:09:13 PM »
SBR-

Go to:     http://www.johnnymillerdesign.com
 
You will get the full story on the courses they have done and the people he works with.

DT

buffett_guy

Re:Johnny Miller
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2003, 08:16:50 PM »
i can confirm that the houses at Beacon Hill cost A LOT. i can also confirm that i've seen marketing materials for the course with Miller looking at a piece of paper that appears to be a map. i've also seen some pretty pictures of the course. I've spoken to somebody who played the course and said it was very nice.

that's all

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2013, 12:05:28 PM »
I’ll bump this old thread to see if anyone has information.

Miller’s Beacon Hill course remains closed.  I understand that it closed a few years back, with the course finished but with no clubhouse built.  It had opened as a private club and closed soon afterward, taking with it some serious initiation money from early members.  The chapter-11 scenario that played out involved included auctions cancelled at the last hour, lienholder lawsuits, and I believe even fraud allegations, and resulted in one of the multiple lienholders ending holding the place.  Homeowners adjoining the course are not happy with the overgrowth & closed course and occasionally threaten legal action to keep it somewhat maintained.

I walked a few holes recently.  There seems to be some very basic level of infrequent mowing that is keeping holes from being totally overgrown.  Greens are dead and weed covered.  Some sprinkler heads are scattered around, pulled out of the ground, and old benches, signs and ball washers remain and are falling apart. 

Walking an abandoned golf course is a sad, eerie, experience.

I was wondering what the chances are for such a place to ever reopen as a golf course?  How much work in involved in restoring an overgrown course? 

From some past research I did on another course for sale, I know that coming up with a business model to make a failed course work is close to impossible in many cases.  I’d guess that a second or third owner would have a better chance that the initial builder. 

What a shame to build an expensive course, only to have it open for 1 or 2 years.


Lester George

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Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2014, 10:52:14 AM »
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 10:53:46 AM by Dave Doxey »

Brett Wiesley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 12:07:55 AM »
He's partnered with Gene Bates on several courses as well.  Especially a few in Utah:  Stonebridge.  He's also done Thanksgiving Pointe, not sure if Bates was involved here as well.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 12:13:17 AM »
Good luck to them.

After a golf course has gone to seed (sounds as though this one is pretty much there), it's cheaper - and better -  to tear up the fairways and greens and start over.  I'm not an agronomist, but I do have some experience with a (formerly) bankrupt course in Hawaii that was intentionally maintained for over three years because the trustee got good advice to do so.

Maybe Lester George can shed some light on this.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 03:45:55 AM »
ChipOat,

I suspect it will depend on the grass types. Cool season grasses should be okay though it could take several months for tees and fairways and a bit longer for greens to be in any playable shape.

Jon

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2014, 07:59:25 AM »
  If I got the lease there I would convert the fairways and tees to bermuda.  Takes the pressure off irrigation needs and pesticide program, should help the bottom line.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2014, 10:19:09 AM »
Sean, how much would it cost to do that? 

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2014, 10:28:57 AM »
Agree with ChipOat--good luck to them.  I wonder whether NoVa really can support another course right now.  

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 05:42:59 PM »
The word on the street is that the course will likely not be reopened by the HOA, if acquired.  It is zoned such that residential or commercial development is prohibited, so it will likely be left as open space in the development.

The fact that a fully constructed course by a big name designer can be had for $1 and still not be sustainable to operate is astonishing! Granted that there would be some investment required to put it back in playing condition (it has been kept mowed).  The course obviously cost several million to construct (it never got a clubhouse, though).  This says a lot about the state of the course industry….

Seeing a decent golf course in an abandoned state is a very sad sight.   If you have ever walked one, especially one that you have played, it is a moving experience.   Another very nice northern Virginia course, Virginia National, closed for good 2 years ago and is now being left to completely grow over.

Another sad fact – quite a few Beacon Hill memberships were sold at a $50K up front initiation fee. Those members were left with nothing after 2 seasons.  That adds up to a pretty hefty “cost per round”  if one looks at it that way! Makes one think twice before writing a joining check these days.

 

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2014, 07:28:48 PM »
. . .
Another sad fact – quite a few Beacon Hill memberships were sold at a $50K up front initiation fee. Those members were left with nothing after 2 seasons.  That adds up to a pretty hefty “cost per round”  if one looks at it that way! Makes one think twice before writing a joining check these days.

Yes it does.  But, for those who have that kind of money to throw into a new venture like this - obviously very high risk - I am sure it is not a "big deal."

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2014, 07:51:44 PM »
EDIT: Just realized the timeline for these posts. I'll leave this here but apologize for getting off topic.

Well, I've played The Bridges (San Ramon) and Metro of his. Metro gets a lot of flack for not being in good shape but I've found it to be somewhat enjoyable, especially when you factor in how much it is to play there (I think the junior rate was like $10).

I've always been a fan of Bridges the same way I've been a fan of the old Poppy Hills. I understand it's not great architecture but it doesn't keep me from having boatloads of fun there. It's a tough track with a few interesting greens (Although I do think that what was the 18th is a bit gimmicky at 75 yards deep and out of contrast with the course). It's brutally difficult, you'll undoubtedly lose golf balls, and on a busy day, it's going to be slow.

Jay Blasi is rebuilding the bunkers there (it was mentioned in a Feature Interview a few months ago from him) which is something the course needed desperately.

Legend has it Miller went to play his inaugural round at the Bridges and walked off the course after four holes in a fury because it "was too hard." Apparently they made a few changes as a result. I'll let you interpret how much work Miller puts into his courses from that.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 07:55:44 PM by Connor Dougherty »
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2014, 07:34:10 PM »
Interesting question for those of you in the business – what are the options here?

The homeowners association faces decisions with the opportunity to get Miller's Beacon Hill course for $1 plus minor back taxes & fees.

Having an abandoned course in a development cannot help home values.  The objective is to have a course with a good reputation that at least breaks even and again serves as the centerpiece of a housing development. 

It would seem that a fairly new course, in the absence of any debt load, should be able to at least break even.   The alternative is open space that must be managed and maintained at some level by the homeowners.


Positives:

They get a Miller designed 27 hole course that cost an estimated $20M to build. No debt.

The course was completed and operated for 2 or 3 years

Since closing in 2006, the course has been kept mowed, but had nothing else done

A recent engineering study reported that cart paths and bridges were in generally good condition, requiring only minor repairs

Loudoun county VA is close to Washington DC, growing rapidly, and affluent. There not much quality golf to be had within  20 mile radius.


Negatives:

No clubhouse was ever constructed. When operating, it used a temporary building, since removed

The county is rumored to be ready to ask for new permitting before the course could reopen

No info on condition of the irrigation system.

Zoning and land use restrictions prevent any residential or commercial use of the land, other than agriculture.  The course was included in the housing development approval as open space.  Essentially zero value if not a golf course.

The club, when operating, was private, with $50K initiation fees, which were lost to members in the bankruptcy.  This might present an image problem with a new private club



Now the discussion questions!

Having been mowed, but not otherwise maintained (water, fertilizer, etc.), what investment would you envision that would be needed to bring the course back to playing conditions?  Expect the fairways to need re-grassing?  What would the greens likely need?  Big $$?

How would you proceed?

Buy a market/operation/feasibility study? - How would that work?  I assume that there are golf consultants that do this.  Get one consultant's advice, or more than one?

Any potential to sell the course to an operator?  (The loan holder tried, with no luck – asking price unknown)

Explore course operating/management companies looking for bids to operate? - Would a management company be expected take on the P&L?  Would they pay a for lease? Or, would they expect some funding guarantees?  Share Profits?  Who pays who? 

How to decide if being private, semi-private, or public course is the best approach?

Keep all 27 holes?  Keep 18 or 9?

I expect the answer is “it depends upon the results of a study”, but I'm interested in a discussion of approach and expectations.  To my knowledge, the association has not gotten far along yet, working to date mainly on opinions & debate within the community.

BTW.  I have no role in any of this.  I'm not in or associated with the Homeowners Association, nor do I have any contacts there.  I'm not in any way affected by how this ends up, nor do I stand to gain by whatever happens. 

I'm just a nearby resident and a golfer who has an odd fascination with golf business models & who hates to see a golf course die.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 07:40:01 PM by Dave Doxey »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2014, 07:53:40 PM »
Is The Bridges the course that sets Huckaby's hair on fire?

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2014, 08:01:13 PM »
Sean, how much would it cost to do that? 
Jim - I would have to look into that but there are some good options for Bermuda in the Mid-Atlantic now.  Patriot and Latitude 36 come to mind.  Actually a public course, Springfield Country Club, just South of Philadelphia sprigged it's fairways to Latitude 36 last summer.  They had a tough establishment dew to a very wet June but by fall it was looking better.  I think any of the Bermuda varieties coming out of Oklahoma are the more cold tolerant ones.  I put the Latitude on my practice tee, sodded 7k sq ft, last May and it was awesome by mid June. I will be curious to see how it comes through this winter.  Several Clubs in our area are using Bermuda on practice tees.

My personal opinion is that Bermuda these Bermuda grasses could help save golf.  I currently spray / maintain 26 acres of bentgrass, ryegrass and poa fairways.  How much more fun for my Members would it be if we had closer to 35 or 40 acres of fairway height grass?  I think it would be great fun, would open up angles of play, speed up play and they would feel like they were playing the old Augusta prior to the new rough and trees.  Bermuda could give us the opportunity to do this dew to less chemical and water expense.  I could not even consider it if we stayed bentgrass. If fact I would look to reduce acreage if we could with more forward tees.  I would gladly figure out how to mow twice the acreage of fairway if I didn't have to worry about summer disease programs and water management.

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2014, 08:13:15 PM »
 Link with information on Latitude 36

https://statemagazine.okstate.edu/latitude_36_bermuda

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2014, 10:44:56 PM »
I remember playing the course a couple of times when it was open and it was not on the list of my favorites as it had some very forced holes and strange playing characteristics.  I would recommend that an architect be hired to review whatever plans they have and walk the property to see what should be done and perhaps limit it to 18 holes until you get some financial footing.  Richard Mandell did some great work at Army Navy and maybe he can give you some suggestions.  It is unfortunate that I recently played another Johnny Miller course, Binks Forest in West Palm Beach, Florida, which has also seen some really tough financial times and was so bad that I left rather than play the back nine.

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Johnny Miller
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2014, 09:27:28 AM »
Find 18 good holes.  High priority on good practice facilities and then create a six hole course that is beginner, junior and senior golf friendly