[Ken Moum]

I don't know the technical details but my teaching-pro buddy says there are two totally different styles of chipping/pitching stroke. The finer distinctions are beyond my ken but one way of chipping deliberately engages the bounce of the club (even from tight lies) and the other depends on getting the leading edge under the ball before the bounce can come into play.

I'd imagine users of those two general types of chipping stroke might have distinctly different preferences for wedge design...

Precisely.

My argument, and I have collected plenty of information from observation, is that the bounce users are employing a method that is MUCH simpler than trying to slip a knife edge between the ball and turf.

Players who need low bounce on firm turf aren't keeping their hands ahead of the clubhead.

There's an easier way.

Watch how Phil M. does it, here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgkcnZygGnY&list=PL79D7A3FDE1BFB070

But don't listen too much to his words, because he doesn't actually hold his angle.  There's a little but of release, which give you better feel for the clubhead.  The problem is that most flippers can't keep the release that small.

He does keep his hands ahead of the clubhead, which means the bounce on his wedge is helping him.  With that method, you have a much, much larger margin of error as the bounce will let the club slid along the turf on slightly fat shots.

I prefer to say that you cock your wrists, then drag the clubhead through impact. With a high-bounce wedge, you can thump the ground with the bounce and hit a ball off bare dirt.

K  

[Carl Johnson]

Brent, I'm with you. One of my big reasons for favouring firm, tight turf is the forgiveness it provides. Playing soft parkland courses in the winter is not enjoyable for me as one needs to be a very good ball striker to make consistently clean contact. I'm not, and so I avoid them if I can.

Same here.  I'm not a skilled player.  A tight lie on a firm fairway works best for me.  I've been very happy on links fairways when I've had the opportunity to play them.  Recently I played away from my home club at a course with zoysia fairways, and then at another place on Bermuda that wasn't cut tight.  They both drove me nuts.  Hardpan clay would suit me just fine!

[William_G]

I don't know the technical details but my teaching-pro buddy says there are two totally different styles of chipping/pitching stroke. The finer distinctions are beyond my ken but one way of chipping deliberately engages the bounce of the club (even from tight lies) and the other depends on getting the leading edge under the ball before the bounce can come into play.

I'd imagine users of those two general types of chipping stroke might have distinctly different preferences for wedge design...

Precisely.

My argument, and I have collected plenty of information from observation, is that the bounce users are employing a method that is MUCH simpler than trying to slip a knife edge between the ball and turf.

Players who need low bounce on firm turf aren't keeping their hands ahead of the clubhead.

There's an easier way.

Watch how Phil M. does it, here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgkcnZygGnY&list=PL79D7A3FDE1BFB070

But don't listen too much to his words, because he doesn't actually hold his angle.  There's a little but of release, which give you better feel for the clubhead.  The problem is that most flippers can't keep the release that small.

He does keep his hands ahead of the clubhead, which means the bounce on his wedge is helping him.  With that method, you have a much, much larger margin of error as the bounce will let the club slid along the turf on slightly fat shots.

I prefer to say that you cock your wrists, then drag the clubhead through impact. With a high-bounce wedge, you can thump the ground with the bounce and hit a ball off bare dirt.

K  

-1

thanks

[Thomas Dai]

Ken,
I'm always interested in learning new short game shots so out of curiousity when you say "With a high-bounce wedge, you can thump the ground with the bounce and hit a ball off bare dirt" do you mean high bounce with wide flange or high bounce with narrow flange and what loft are you referring to? No criticism of your suggestion is intended, I'm just searching for more more short game knowledge - I reckon that you can never have enough variety of short game shots at your disposal!
All the best.

[Rich Goodale]

If you have a good swing and you can hit the ball clean and straight and of the required length, regardless of the nature of the turf, the game is easy.  Just watch the US guys who come over once a year for the British Open tear the courses apart.  Of course, if your swing is dubious and you can't hit the ball clean and straight with any regularity, tight and firm turf will expose your flaws to an embarrassing extent.  Fluffy fairways and soft greens will always favor the hacker.

[Kevin_Reilly]

A teacher in Florida who works with high level players is an advocate of wedges with high bounce.  Here is one of his videos...he is using a Vokey wedge with 12 degrees of bounce in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RyPvHb49uw0

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting video. I've experimented myself with hitting shots from wooden boards. The shorter the shot the more difficult is what I've generally found.

But how much relief it there in the heel area of the the Vokey wedge in the video, ie it may be 12* of bounce in the middle of the flange but is it also 12* in the heel? Plus the chap demonstrating the shot seems to have dropped his hands at address. I understand that Seve latterly mainly used a 56* 588 series Cleveland sand wedge, the standard model of which came with 14* of bounce. Through his incredible skill at manipulating the blade he could produce the most amazing shots time after time. But how much grinding of the heel area and the flange had taken place beforehand? What we can see from video of him plus the excellent shot game instructional video he produced, is how much he dropped his hands at address and held them there through the shot.

I have a prototype Vokey that I acquired secondhand and the grind on the flange is nothing like the standard models of the same loft you can buy in a golf shop. I'm not slagging off Vokeys here or the chap in the video, but all sorts of tweaks and adjustments take place or can be done for you by a skilled clubmaker with a grinding wheel.

This is why I'm interested in the fine detail of the wedge specification, the flange width, the level of heel (and toe) relief etc, not just the degree of bounce a club might possess. The sort of ball being used is also vital, for example, a ProV1 will come off a Vokey at a very different trajectory to an AD333 and the spin on landing will be very different too.

Complicated subject, but fascinating. I wish more clubs had very high quality short game practice areas where you could experiment with different sorts of wedges, balls and techniques.

All the best.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Thomas, he posted his wedge specs on Golfwrx.  They are as follows:

48* PW
55*  Vokey SM4 with 12* of bounce (54/11 bent 1* weak) M grind
60*  Vokey V grind (12* of bounce similar to M grind but slightly narrower and steeper bounce angled sole)

All wedges are 3* flat (1* flatter than rest of set)
DG s400
D5 swingweight

[Ken Moum]

Ken,
I'm always interested in learning new short game shots so out of curiousity when you say "With a high-bounce wedge, you can thump the ground with the bounce and hit a ball off bare dirt" do you mean high bounce with wide flange or high bounce with narrow flange and what loft are you referring to? No criticism of your suggestion is intended, I'm just searching for more more short game knowledge - I reckon that you can never have enough variety of short game shots at your disposal!
All the best.

Excellent questions.

I started playing these shots a loong time ago with a Wilson "Original" R90 (the 80s reissue not one from the 30s). They  have a fairly wide sole and a bounce angle I'd guess at roughly 15*.

Then for a while I used an Auld Golf sand wedge with a slightly narrower sole but a similar bounce angle.

During this time I played almost all my golf at a muni in Pierre where the gumbo soil around the greens was packed hard and grassless by cart traffic. Since many of the greens were elevated so hitting a high shot off those lies was essential. What I figured out with the R90 was that by hitting what felt like a bunker shot, I could get the ball up off ground so hard your steel spikes would hardly penetrate.

It sounds stupid, but the feel is as if you pushed the ground down enough to get the wedge in the space under the ball. The bounce is essential to keep the leading edge from digging in.

Re. Equipment, since then I have gone through Ping Eye2 BeCu 60*; ISI 60*; and the first generation Ping Tour 60*. (Mind you I have ~125 wedges so a lot of other stuff migrates through my bag)

Generally I prefer narrowish soles but the Ping Tours are my favorites because they have a lot of rocker from leading edge to trailing edge. Which does act like a narrow sole, or a significant trailing edge grind.

I like the Cleveland DSG grind, which is VERY narrow with a radically high angle of bounce.

I mostly don't like Vokey or Cleveland because they feel light to me. I attribute this to the "fake" sand pros see all the time. Playing out of river sand is easier with a bit more mass in the head. The weight of the 20-30 wedges I have from the 50s and earlier is astounding--but back then bunkers just had plain old sand in them.

I don't see any wedges with both wide soles and high angles. Even the legendary Hogan Sureout didn't have much bounce, despite its wide sole.  I love the look of Cleveland's Recovery Sole, but haven't tried one.

K

[Thomas Dai]

Ken,

Very interesting thoughts. I'm not familiar with Auld wedges but used a first generation original groove Ping Eye2 BeCu 60* (amazing, but wore it out) plus the first generation Ping Tour 60* plus loads of other models from various manufacturers. I'd like to give some of the recent limited edition models from the likes of Vega, Scratch, Chikara etc a go but the prices are pretty steep, even secondhand.

I remember the R90, or rather the re-issued version from the '80's. I had to look for some photos to remind myself of the head shape and I see your point. The flange isn't excessively wide and is tapered off a wee bit at the back edge, quite a reasonable amount of bounce, extremely rounded sole from heel to toe and a leading edge that is very curved. I can picture the shot you describe being played with this club. There's an very interesting version on ebay at the moment with a dotted rather than a grooved face. BTW, anyone happen to know when Gene Sarazen came up with the 'modern' SW idea did his/Wilsons original models have hickory shafts?

A long time ago I had a Cleveland 485 56* BeCu. Like you I generally prefer narrowish soles and this model was probably the best, most versatile wedge I've ever used. It fitted my game spot-on. In fact I used it for so long I wore the grooves out. I expect you've got one amongst your 125! I've tried the various Cleveland DSG grind models and there's a shop available Vokey these days thats not to dissimilar but they're not quite for right me, great from handpan and very firm sand though, as were the Cobra Trusty Rusty's made in the late '90's. Not so good when the ground gets a bit softer or the grass longer, but what the hell, take it out of the bag and put in another one that's been previously confined to the naughty wedge cupboard! I recall the wide flange-low bounce Hogan Sureout but haven't yet seen the Cleveland Recovery you mention.

Have you any 64*'s (or even higher lofts) in your collection and if so how playable do you find them?

Kevin,

Thanks for the specs. Flat lie 'V' grind. Having looked at the 'V' grind specs on Vokey's site I can envisage playing this shot with this club. Still not easy to play, pretty simple to skull it through a window if there one nearby!

All the best.

[Craig Sweet]

For hitting irons from the fairway I like a 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch height of cut.

[William_G]

A teacher in Florida who works with high level players is an advocate of wedges with high bounce.  Here is one of his videos...he is using a Vokey wedge with 12 degrees of bounce in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RyPvHb49uw0

fun video, perfect lie!....for fast and firm links turf, the board in the video would need to be on concrete...let's see that video 

thanks

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