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Matthew Essig

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Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« on: September 12, 2013, 01:04:16 AM »
Ok I'm not that desperate..... yet.

As some of you may know, I am an aspiring golf course architect. I am currently researching colleges.  Does anyone know universities that offer landscape architecture degree? Additionally, is there an alternative degree to achieve my goal? The University of Washington is close to home and is an obvious option. I am also familiar with Cornell because of my grandfather, Tom Doak, and others. I would prefer to stay on the West Coast, but I am open to hearing about all schools.  Any advice and guidance is greatly appreciated so that I can continue my search.  
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Mike Sweeney

Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 06:38:34 AM »
Wiki is probably pretty close:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_of_landscape_architecture

I have a senior in high school now so I say this with that perspective. You have an advantage in that you seem to know what you want to do. Are you sure and have you worked in the field? Why not take a year and work as an intern in the field and see is you like it for sure first?

It sounds like you have the right connections, and the year may guide you.

Just a thought, and good luck.

Steve Kline

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 06:45:07 AM »
Mike's advice about working in the field for a year to be sure this is what you want to do is really good. So many people don't make use of their degrees. And, college is so expensive now.

Steve Burrows

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 07:31:45 AM »
Matthew,

The suggestion of gaining an internship in the field is well-intentioned, but also slightly mis-guided.  I suspect that few employers in the golf course design field (or Landscape Architecture proper) are willing to take on an intern with no experience.  They might let you shadow them for a day of two, but an extended internship - where you would actually be able to learn something - is unlikely.  Construction and/ or maintenance are also good options to get some experience and to get your foot in the door.  

That said, I don't believe that very many people at all really know what the want to do with their lives before they get to college; it is such a formative experience.  So if golf course design is something you want to do, then by all means put your heart and soul into it.  I think you will find that golf course design is a heavily competitive, if not shrinking, field.  Not many people will just GIVE you opportunities; you will need to pursue your goal relentlessly.  However, if after a a four-year curriculum in Landscape Architecture, Engineering, or otherwise, you have changed your mind, your degree will still confirm for potential employers a range of problem-solving skills and practical knowledge that is easily transferable to what ever may follow.
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Rick Sides

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 07:35:16 AM »
Hey Matt,
Very cool ambition.  People will probably discourage you and tell you there is no more work in architecture and how difficult the market is but if it's really your dream...chase it.  I will tell you that working during the summer months on a golf course grounds crew will also give you a lot of good experience.  Grounds crew allows you to really see how design impacts daily operations.
Good Luck

Scott Warren

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 07:45:43 AM »
Tom Doak is your grandfather?!

Mark McKeever

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 09:06:26 AM »


Have you worked with a firm already to ensure its what you want to do?

Mark
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 09:19:33 AM by Mark McKeever »
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David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 09:14:15 AM »
Tom Doak is your grandfather?!

-1

Very funny...his grandfather (who's name he didn't mention), Tom Doak and others....

Scott you work in journalism don't you? ;-)

Plus I doubt that even in the most unlikely of cases Tom Doak is close to old enough to have grandkids finishing high school ha ha. Nice try though.
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Randy Thompson

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 09:36:23 AM »
Tom has a son close to that age and I have been in contact with him trying to get him to adopt me, so Tom Doak could be my future grandfather!
Good luck Mathew, check with me in a few years if you want to intern South of the Border!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 09:43:53 AM »
Tom Doak is your grandfather?!

-2

I suspect he would have made TD parenthetical, SW.
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Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 10:34:53 AM »
My Alma Mater, Michigan State University has a quality landscape architecture school. One of the top 15 in the country. Also, their turfgrass program is exceptional if that's applicable.

Andrew Buck

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 10:51:48 AM »
While I'm of no help here, except to say I regret not following this passion in college when it was my true desire, I think both Mike and Kelly have good suggestions.

I think it could only help to have a double major in landscape architecture and a turfgrass program.  Also, I would think a summer caddying in GB with free-time seeing other courses, followed by a traditional internship would be perfect.  

I would also reach out with a letter to every golf course architect there is, asking for a few minutes of their time to discuss your passion and take in all the advice they could offer.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 01:09:29 PM »
Matthew

I like Mike Sweeney's advice, except I wouldn't call it an internship, I'd call it work.

Why do you need a degree?
Why are you aspiring to be an architect?
Where are you willing to work?
How long do you think it will take to become a golf course architect?
What do you think it would be like to be a golf course architect?

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2013, 01:10:36 PM »
Blessed are those who know early on in life what they were put here on earth to do.  Nevertheless, research your passions thoroughly.  Assess your skills carefully and evaluate your probability of success.  Count not only the rungs of the ladder you must climb, but also calculate its angle.  Last but not least, putting romance and wishful thinking aside, determine whether the standard of living you are willing to accept can be accomplished reasonably in your chosen profession.

You might wish to consider that the lower the barriers to entry, the more competition you will have.  I heard recently that colleges are graduating twice the number of teachers needed.  The #1 college major is Psychology.  There is a reason why jobs pay what they do.  Listen to Steve Burrows.   Contrary to what you are often told, decisions you make today can have a very large impact on the rest of your life.    

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2013, 01:26:41 PM »
Tom Doak is your grandfather?!

Scott --

I guess the interrobang wasn't a good enough hint, for some people, that you were joking.

Nice try, though.

Next time, you'd better use an emoticon (emoticon omitted).

Dan

P.S. to Matthew -- I think Andrew Buck's final advice is very, very solid.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2013, 01:27:13 PM »
I believe Jeff Brauer got his degree from my alma mater, the Univerity of Illinois.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2013, 01:33:22 PM »
Matthew,

I made the same decision you are considering when I was 18, dove in head first, and never looked back.

I'm 52 now, and starting to look back.  Only in hindsight is it possible to understand how lucky I've been to still have a seat in this giant game of musical chairs.  It is a tremendously competitive business, and to advance yourself you have to be willing to work and travel to excess.  Somewhere, your future wife is holding her breath right now, wishing you'd opt for a less demanding career.  You will have to find a special one to put up with it all.

I wondered if I would be happy in the field until I had a summer job working on Pete Dye's course at Long Cove when I was 20.  The work was grueling but exhilarating, and I realized I would enjoy being part of it even if I never got to put my own name on a scorecard.  My advice would be to figure that out as soon as you can.

George Pazin

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2013, 02:12:16 PM »
Tom Doak is your grandfather?!

Scott --

I guess the interrobang wasn't a good enough hint, for some people, that you were joking.

Nice try, though.

Next time, you'd better use an emoticon (emoticon omitted).

Dan

P.S. to Matthew -- I think Andrew Buck's final advice is very, very solid.

I almost made the same exact post.

-----

I wonder if civil engineering might be a more practical major. Or if your major would really even matter.

People always ask me if I went to art school. Then, after hearing no to that, that ask if I was an art major. They usually laugh when I say I have a math degree.

I'm killing the Penn job/salary stats, btw...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2013, 02:13:55 PM »
Cal Poly at SLO is west coast. Whatever you do, don't be a duck! ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2013, 02:47:28 PM »
Matthew, you've been around this site enough to know the realities of the industry. Golf course architecture is obviously a tough field, but there will also inevitably be golf course architects in the future.

You're also well connected simply by being on this site. As others have mentioned, your ability to gain field experience over the next few years will likely be far more important than your choice of major and school for determining your long term success. I don't want to say that a major is inconsequential, but I'm an English major with a Masters in Education. Naturally, I teach doctors how to manage the care of patient panels and get ready for Obamacare for a living, while also designing electronic systems and workflows for the organizations that employ them.

I couldn't have projected myself in this field, but the skills I learned in school help me do my job every day and far more effectively than a healthcare related degree would have. I would encourage you to think outside the box a bit and figure out specific skills you’ll need to succeed as an architect. Too many people go to college thinking that getting a degree will get them a job in their chosen field. I was one of them. I’ve since figured out that the value of a degree has diminished in the last 50 years as more people have gotten them, but the value of real and tangible skills has gone up because so few people actually have the capacity to effectively apply the things they’ve learned.

Get work experience. Take business classes, assuming you’ll want to open your own firm someday. And I like the engineering degree idea that a few people have offered. It’ll likely be just as valuable as a landscape architecture degree for breaking into golf architecture, but the skills you’ll get with it will also likely apply to more lucrative employers in other fields upon graduation. I don’t like to plan too much for a fallback option, but in the same way that strategic golf holes allow you to choose a difficult path off the tee to gain an easier second shot, college offers you the opportunity to really challenge yourself (in terms of academics and also finding valuable field experience) for four or five years to gain an easier post-graduation lifestyle. In golf, it sometimes makes sense to avoid the risk off the tee and just face a tough angle on the second, but in life, I’d rather take the tough path while I’m in my early 20s and have an angle over my peers afterwards. When in doubt, go with the tougher curriculum that offers a higher salary upon completion.
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Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2013, 03:03:52 PM »
Tom Doak is your grandfather?!

No! The commas are for a list not as additional info... I guess I should have wrote it a different way...
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2013, 03:08:11 PM »
I appreciate all the tips and advice! Thank you all very much!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 03:13:30 PM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

David Bartman

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2013, 03:33:29 PM »
UC Riverside - Dr. James Baird - Agriculture - understanding grasses is an overlooked part of architecture, I would suggest interning during your summers with architects to get a complete resume upon graduation

Cal Poly SLO - Landscape architecture   http://www.landscape.calpoly.edu/content/prospective/index

Washington State University -      Landscape design and implementation   http://admission.wsu.edu/academics/fos/Public/field.castle?id=7871

Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Brian Ross

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2013, 04:13:11 PM »
Matt,

I had the same dream as you when I was a little younger.  I went to college and got a LAR degree from a Top 5 program.  While that hasn't particularly helped me to get into golf course design, it is something I enjoy doing, so I still consider it a positive experience.  For me, I haven't been willing to do everything it takes to get into this shifting business.  I've turned down opportunities that probably would have changed my life because I can't justify having to be away from my wife and newborn son for months at a time and that's what it takes these days.  Gone are the days of graduating and getting an office design job. 

I would echo what others have said thus far.  Get a degree, you'll be glad you did.  Landscape Arch, Civil Eng., Business, Turfgrass, Env. Science...something.  In terms of Landscape Architecture, Cal Poly SLO, Cal St. Pomona, and Cal Berkeley are probably the best programs on the west coast.  UWash and Arizona St. both have quite respectable programs too.  Get experience too.  Do Maintenance or Construction during the summers, or take an internship if you're lucky enough to get one.  Make connections!  I like the idea about going to the UK for a summer too.  If you can pull that off, do it.  I wish I had.


P.S.  I would like to add that your LAR professors likely won't care that you want to be a golf course architect, so don't be surprised if/when they try to steer you in other directions.  Any golf course design experience you get in college is going to have to come on your own time.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 04:26:41 PM by Brian Ross »
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Desperate High School Senior Looking For Advice
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2013, 04:32:01 PM »
Go for the degree and make sure you get jobs every summer on maintenance or construction crews....

I can assure you that the skills you will pick up in drawing, CAD, photoshop, rendering etc... doing landscape architecture will be a MAJOR benefit... As will picking up construction skills and practical experience in the field...

Anyone who is recommending one at the complete expense of the other is reducing your chances...

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