Strippers and caddies may have a lot in common,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Both may now be deemed to be employees and not independent contractors.

This would have far reaching consequences and might  spell the end of caddies if expanded and upheld.

A federal Judge has made a ruling in favor of a class action suit on behalf of strippers at Rick's, in NYC,

I'd prefer strippers as caddies, but I might be in the minority

[Jim Franklin]

Both may now be deemed to be employees and not independent contractors.

This would have far reaching consequences and might  spell the end of caddies if expanded and upheld.

A federal Judge has made a ruling in favor of a class action suit on behalf of strippers at Rick's, in NYC,

I'd prefer strippers as caddies, but I might be in the minority

I will be in the minority with you.

[Jordan Wall]

This is terrible news.

Why?

[JESII]

Pat,

How does this connect over to caddies? What was the basis of the decision? Was it around identifying hours required to work?

By the way, I'll join you and Franklin in the minority!

[Bill_McBride]

When you say both "may" be deemed employees and not independent contractors, do you mean the status is optional up to the employer?   Or are they not allowed to be independent contractors?

This is a big issue, as the IRS rigorously attacks the independent contractor status and has brought severe grief to many employers by collecting back payroll taxes never paid for independent contractors later found to be employees.  There are a bunch of tests including the wearing of company clothing.  (I assume this was not a problem with the strippers!)

So what was the ruling?   What did "may" mean?

If it made caddies employees rather than independent contractors, I can see how that would be a big problem for clubs.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's  the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/11/nyregion/strippers-are-protected-by-labor-laws-judge-says.html?_r=0

[Howard Riefs]

I'd prefer strippers as caddies, but I might be in the minority

You're in luck. Safe travels to Vegas.  

http://www.vipgolfservices.com/las_vegas/caddymates/caddies.asp

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

How does this connect over to caddies?

If caddies are deemed employees they maybe be subject to PPACA, which wouldbe costly to the clubs, so much so that they might dispense with their services.

It also presents another path by which to attack private clubs

What was the basis of the decision?
Was it around identifying hours required to work?

You can read the details in various publications

By the way, I'll join you and Franklin in the minority!

[JESII]

Pat,

How many caddies work 30 hours/ week? How many of them do so for more than 4 months per year? How many of them are willing to have their pay taxed fully in exchange for health insurance when they can simply buy it through the state or federal government?

[JMEvensky]

Pat,

How many caddies work 30 hours/ week? How many of them do so for more than 4 months per year? How many of them are willing to have their pay taxed fully in exchange for health insurance when they can simply buy it through the state or federal government?

It almost doesn't matter. If you're a club with a caddie program which is less than critical to the membership,this is just one more argument against having a caddie program. This just makes it easier to say "screw it,it's not worth the potential problems".

[Bill Shamleffer]

Many clubs - including Augusta National - already use outside vendors to handle all of their caddies (including recruiting, training, managing, etc.).  I doubt if any strippers were working through external vendors to obtain their employment.  So the practice of using external vendors to handle a club's caddies may set them apart from the circumstances pertaining to this court case.

Having a person work almost exclusively, on a regualr basis at a single work place, and have to perform their job duties per the work place's requirements is a big stretch from the traditional definition of a "contractor".  However, there are some parameters where these types of workers can still meet the legal definition of a contractor.  This particular case is probably not so much of a threat to the system of caddie programs, as much as it indicates that these places of business did not adequately meet the definition of a contrator per these workers.

Nevertheless, trying to meet the standards of a caddie remaining as a contractor can possibly get too complicated than is worth the effort at some clubs.  Perhaps in addition to having some companies outsource caddies to golf clubs & resorts, an alternative business could be created offering consulting services to clubs and resorts in what they must do to meet the requirements of their caddies being defined as contractors.

[John McCarthy]

Caddies are independent contractors directly by federal law.  I'll get the cite.

On edit:  I'm wrong.  The IRS treats them generally as independent contracters butthe proposed lelegislation died in committee.

[Jim Nugent]

Strippers and caddies may have a lot in common...

... because they get lots of business from GCAers?

[Bill Shamleffer]

Caddies are independent contractors directly by federal law.  I'll get the cite.

On edit:  I'm wrong.  The IRS treats them generally as independent contracters butthe proposed lelegislation died in committee.

John:

You might be referring to when former caddie, Rep Dan Burton when he was Chairman of House Ways & Means Comm., passed legislation that requires the IRS to classify caddies as contractors.  Howerever, since then I know of one instance in Calif that resulted in a caddie being classified as an employee and thus qualifying for Workman's Comp.  I only know the very basics of these two matters and have nothing more of any substance per the details.

I agree that overall the status of caddies as contractors has survived when previously tested.  My own opinion is that the threat to caddies losing their independent contractor status is currently very minimal, but should not be completely ignored.

[Marty Bonnar]

Go on then, Paddy-lad,
Please explain to me in lovely green italics the architectural relevance of this thread.
Yours expectantly
M.

[Marty Bonnar]

Shit,
And I promised myself I'd never post on another of your threads. I am a stupid.
M.

[Mark Chaplin]

It's no wonder the USA have issues if the government and their departments are worried about strippers and caddies.

Withdrawn, never post après cocktails.

[David Bartman]

The IRS looks at some Common Law Rules to determine if a individual is an employee or independent contractor.  Either party can file a form, the number slips my mind, to get a ruling on the status , takes about 6 months.  

Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:

Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?

Financial: How is the individual paid?  Who provides tools or uniforms etc?  

Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? is there a set time frame for the work, is it ongoing?  Is the work integral to the business as a whole?  

Businesses must weigh all these factors when determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor. Some factors may indicate that the worker is an employee, while other factors indicate that the worker is an independent contractor. There is no “magic” or set number of factors that “makes” the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another.

The keys are to look at the entire relationship, consider the degree or extent of the right to direct and control, and finally, to document each of the factors used in coming up with the determination or submit findings to the IRS for a ruling ... SS-8 ( it came to me )

[Tim Martin]

It's no wonder the USA have issues if the government and their departments are worried about strippers and caddies. Surely you must have somowhere to bomb the lights out of?

Really?

[David_Elvins]

Please explain to me in lovely green italics the architectural relevance of this thread.

Please don't give him a chance to post about artificial mounding, short grass as a hazard, strippers that reveal more of themselves after multiple plays, multiple pin positions etc etc etc.  

[Ronald Montesano]

marty

the quote is, what a stupid i am

[jeffwarne]

Cheers Mark

although I frankly think we should focus more on the strippers

[Don_Mahaffey]

I'll try and give it an architectural context.
All those guys who worked under and learned from Pete Dye were independent contractors.
The "boys" from C & C are independent contractors.
The only architect I know who actually employs his talented shapers is Tom Doak.
As far as I know, most architects who like to say they use "their" guys, actually hire independent contractors.

Now, does that change anything, I have no idea.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

How many caddies work 30 hours/ week?

With double loops and 6 days a week, plenty.

How many of them do so for more than 4 months per year?

Doesn't matter, once you hit a 30 hour threshold, you're a full time employee

How many of them are willing to have their pay taxed fully in exchange for health insurance when they can simply buy it through the state or federal government?

You don't understand, once they're classified as employees, they won't have a choice

[Patrick_Mucci]

Go on then, Paddy-lad,
Please explain to me in lovely green italics the architectural relevance of this thread.
Yours expectantly
M.

Look up the words, "related matters"

In the meantime, why have you failed to answer the question I asked you about identifying the "clunky", "artificial and even jarring" features at NGLA ?

You've had plenty of time to respond.
Please identify what you saw and categorized as "clunky", "artificial and even jarring" features.