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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« on: September 11, 2013, 04:36:28 PM »
I haven't yet experienced it (not for the lack of invitations) but I have to say, looking at pictures of Dismal River Red, Ballyneal, Sand Hills, all the holes look the same to me.  To play Devil's Advocate, how can courses be considered the best in the world if their holes are virtually indistinguishable from one another by the naked eye?

I'm now going to duck and cover.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 05:10:52 PM »
There's no doubt that there are a lot of photographic similarities, which only affirms the limitation of simple photography as an effective means to compare and contrast golf courses.  To be out there on the ground, each golf course has its own look, feel, individuality and personality, but the camera lens tends to homogenize the experience.  I think the same can be true of parkland type layouts, but maybe it's easier to differentiate holes that have definitional features like big trees in certain places, ponds in certain places, etc.  All I'll tell you is that even though there may be similarities between Sand Hills, Dismal and Ballyneal in photographs, they are very individual golf courses, especially with the strategy involved and the tremendous diversity in green construction.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2013, 05:52:57 PM »
Hey Ryan. I hope you're on your way out to the plains this weekend and get to see some of these places for yourself. I think you'll enjoy whichever courses you happen to play.

I can see what you mean in your o.p. and Judge Lavin lays it out pretty well with regards to photographs being unable to really give you a distinct flavor of a place compared to others.

Here's a fun example showing 8 of the Top 23 World's Greatest Courses (according to GOLF Magazine). I just googled these images..

















Sort of a "seen one - seen them all" thing, if judging by these pics alone. But I doubt that is the case, as I know it isn't for the three courses you mentioned in your post.



Shane Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 06:14:37 PM »
Mr. Potts,

Growing up a "Great Plainsman" I've never been a huge fan of the pictures of the Modern Era greats until I've seen the course.  I've admittedly not looked at that many pictures of the Dismal River courses because I haven't been to see them yet.  I also tried not to look at too many pictures of Sand Hills and Ballyneal before seeing them for the first time.   But I love looking at them after getting to know and experience the course.  In my opinion, Sand Hills plays absolutely nothing like or feels like Ballyneal.  There isn't a hole on either course that is remotely similar to each other.  Using imagination with wide open spaces creates a uniqueness that I believe is extremely difficult to capture accurately with a camera, especially when there isn't an ocean crashing against one or two sides of the course. 

I know you probably can get to any one of these courses when you'd like.  Go do it.  I've yet to play a course in the prairie or seaside links that didn't far surpass any of the pictures I had gone thru prior to playing. 

Good topic


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2013, 06:40:21 PM »
I have always wondered whether the creation of several more sand hills courses would take something away from the uniqueness of the original, which has always been a part of its appeal.  Places like Sunningdale and Winged Foot went through the same thing when their neighbors were built; none of the neighbors are rated as highly as the original, but they are all a bit less unique.

I know that for both the courses I've done we have tried our hardest not to build any holes that would seem too similar to any hole at Sand Hills and I believe we have kept our word on that.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 11:35:01 AM »
Tom,
On the courses you've done in the area did you find that you arrived at 18 individual holes and a routing relatively easily or was it more a case of "there's a million great holes out there, now how in hell do I whittle it down to only 18?". The terrain looks just so amazing and there seems to be so much of it that I'm curious to know how the choices were made, assuming of course, that there was equal water access to all potential holes.
All the best.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 12:11:15 PM »
Tom, I'm sure that Sand Hills has lost a bit of its uniqueness. That was probably inevitable. But the region still feels so unique when I drive through it. Purely as a golfer interested in architecture, though, there's no other place in the world that stands out so much. 150 mile drives feel too short as you drive past all these places where you can visualize amazing golf holes.

I also think the lack of a population out there will self-protect the region from getting overdeveloped to a point where courses start to feel like they all blend together on the ground. By my count, there are still less than 10 noteworthy courses within the few thousand square miles that comprise the region around Sand Hills, while there might be thousands of noteworthy parkland courses in the same radius around Winged Foot.

It's an amazing place to visit for sure. I've only scratched the surface, and it's the place in golf I most look forward to returning to for the sake of seeing more.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 12:33:45 PM »
I also tried not to look at too many pictures ... before seeing them for the first time.   But I love looking at them after getting to know and experience the course.

Shane --

I have wondered if I'm the only one. Happy to know I'm not.

I wonder how many others don't bother to look closely at pictures of (or read much about) a course till after they've played it.

I (almost) never read movie reviews, either, till after I've seen the movie.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 02:18:56 PM »
JR,

When considering the two courses at Dismal River, I am not quick to think there is a degree of sameness throughout the property.  Generally speaking, the Nicklaus course tends to play through valleys, while the Doak courses appears to play more along ridges.  Further, the steep terrain immediately across the river from the Doak course gives the course a sense of place much different from either Sand Hills or the other course at Dismal.  While I haven't been to Ballyneal, it has been mentioned that the terrain is much steeper than the more gently rolling landscape at Sand Hills.  Perhaps we are talking about shades of a similar colour, but there is enough difference to provide each course with its own unique character.

TK

Sam Morrow

Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 04:28:23 PM »
I haven't yet experienced it (not for the lack of invitations) but I have to say, looking at pictures of Dismal River Red, Ballyneal, Sand Hills, all the holes look the same to me.  To play Devil's Advocate, how can courses be considered the best in the world if their holes are virtually indistinguishable from one another by the naked eye?

I'm now going to duck and cover.

Interesting question and I'm going to answer a question with a question. Do you feel the same way about Raynor courses because they use the same templates?

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 04:31:59 PM »
To play Devil's Advocate, how can courses be considered the best in the world if their holes are virtually indistinguishable from one another by the naked eye?

I neglected to answer your question.

Here's my answer:

The naked eye does not play golf.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Peter Pallotta

Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 04:49:37 PM »
The naked eye does not play golf.

As pithy a line as you've ever penned, Sir. Well done.

Note, however: I chose my words carefully. And alas, pithy does not truth make.

(All emoticons and other signifiers omitted, of course.)

Peter

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 07:34:05 AM »
no need to go see anymore of the great links of the UK and Ireland
seen one , seen them all ;) ;D
low dunes, high dunes, ocean, blah blah blah

high class problems
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains....
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 11:49:37 AM »
The playing diversity of holes and their individual playing characteristics are infinite when you consider the canvas they are designed upon.  Unless you use machinery to intentionally grade out and construct a template hole with exact copies of elevation and slope %, running in the same prevailing wind directions, using all the exact same measurements of width and height and exact same dimensions of greens and orientation, it seems a mathematical fact that no two holes can be the same in playing them or look.  Yet, we can say they are arranged and oriented similarly.  

What I mean is to look at the possibilities of the geometry and use the multiplying effects that compound the diversity.  Consider just par 4s.  Mathematically, they can play from 270ish to 520ish in length.   Just on length alone, multiply that by factors that they can play from 27yards wide to 150 yards wide in LZs or approaches.  Then multiply that by at least dozens of turning points if the hole is to dogleg right or left and by how many degrees.  Then multiply that by the 4 basic points on the compass and inter-directional incriments.  Then multiply that by the potential for elevation changes tee to green from a range that could exceed 50ft in height, then multiply that by the infinite frequency of the terrain elevation changes from tight moguls to sweeping slopes and long or abrupt ridges, then multiply that by the factors of what wind adds or reduces or alters ball flight, multiplied by the elevation above sea level of the ball dynamics, and finally the dynamic of firmness and speed of the ground and variety of turf and its HOC, ......... and you couldn't possibly ever say that two holes could be alike on parkland or prairie, in point of fact.  

But, that is the micro analysis of comparing golf holes.  The mind can understand that in an analytical sense based on the infinite potentials of geometry of why two holes can not actually be alike.  But, as JR points out, the naked eye perceives also in understanding space in something of an 'emotional' sense.  One feels a certain emotion in a treed lovely parkland setting.  One sees the land and field of play differently from a confined by trees and buildings obstructions in parkland from what the eye takes in out there in the vast prairie - long view of infinity to the horizon rolling sand hill prairie.  The emotion that controls perception of the 'naked eye' is different when you are "used to" the look of those diverse landscapes.  I venture to guess that a native of the sand hill prairie when playing the sand hill golf courses feels and sees or perceives the immediate and long view corridor much differently.  I think the resident of the sand hills that sees this land everyday picks up things in the periphery of the immediate playing corridor that the person from an everyday confined long view horizoned environmental does not see.  I think the person more accustomed to the prairie views sees more color in the long view horizon, and recognizes subtle terrain changes of elevation variance and distances more acutely, simply because they live there and are "used to" processing spatially these diversities.  So what a person from a confined everyday environment perceives as just a bunch of endless sand hills (and what they know to be golf holes interspersed among them) as looking all the same, a person that is accustomed may see vastly different details, and have a completely different emotional reaction.  

« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 11:53:07 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalist Architecture in the Great Plains.... New
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 01:15:23 PM »
...pithy does not truth make.

Sometimes it does.

Minimally yrs.,
D
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 01:21:44 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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