[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I was struck by a question I wanted to throw out to the group yesterday.  While playing as a single (with a cart, Hey it is beastly hot in SC this time of year) on a fairly open golf course I was able to play in my normal pace for a round of cart ball if unincumbered (about 2:10).

However I came across a situation that caused me to want to take an impromptu poll.  As I approached the par 3 fourth hole of about 175yards, I witnessed the last of a foursome hit their tee shot.  Fortunately they let me right onto the tee to play through.  I hit my ball on the green hustled up there and putted out.  From there I proceded to play the next hole a par 5.  I noticed as I was putting out there that the guys were just pulling out the flag on the green of the par three where I played through them.  After hitting my tee shot on the subsequent hole and driving out of site I noticed that they were still putting out on the par 3.  I was just amazed that four guys who had already played their tee shots on a par 3 when I played through them could not chip on and putt out in the time that a single could play an entire par 5 and tee off on the par 4 following.

It caused me to wonder one, what the heck was wrong with them.  And also to ponder how long thier entire round would take them?  Since I am lucky enought to play many of my rounds at my club where most anyone will let you through if you actually catch someone, I was wondering what most people find the average round on either a public or private course to take time wise?

This is not intended to become a bragging session about how quickly you can play 18 holes, but an actual discussion of how long do you find it typically to play 18 holes given that you are typically surrounded by people who unfortunately set the pace for everyone else.

For anyone who does not want to incriminate their home club or course. just post anonymously and give us the straight truth.

It might also be interesting to hear your horror stories (like if I would have been trapped behind these four guys I mentioned).  Besides if you have been through a horror story situation it may be theraputic to talk (vent) about it.

I am afraid to hear the stories.

[JakaB]

If no one is in front or behind you it should take as long as a great meal.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Jaka,

How long DOES it take, not how long SHOULD it take?

[Michael Dugger]

There is no doubt that a certain percentage of folks play as slow as could be, some of them are good players, some of them are terrible.  When playing with a slow player I usually perform subpar and remind myself not to ever play with that person again.

I've been stuck behind slow pokes a million times, you get use to it if you are a municipal player.  

They suck, I want to yell at them

But whatever, if they are a good conversationalist and we aren't playing for $$$$$$$, it's ok

I usually allocate about 3 1/2 to 4 hours for 18 holes if you don't spend too much time at the turn.  If it's a log jam, count on 5+.  These figures are for average white tee players shooting in the 80 walking (you wuss) not riding

Hotter weather, maybe 4 1/2

A round of golf is tiring.  After walking 18 in the sun I'm ready for a nap  

[A.G._Crockett]

Turboe,

There may be too much variation to answer this easily.  Public or private, weekday or weekend, riding or walking, fairways or cartpath only, etc.

Playing alone, I generally walk in about 3:15, or ride if we're on the fairways in about 2:15.  Cart-path only takes it up by about 30 min. to the 2:45 range, I'd guess.  (My club doesn't allow walking until after 12)

However, when the course is path-only and crowded, which generally means more players of lesser skills and, more importantly, less knowledge of HOW to play quickly, playing time skyrockets.  Anything in excess of 4:10 or so at a private club is an absolute disaster, with ticked off people all over the course.

[A_Clay_Man]

I can speak to the public venues and the truth is it is indeterminate. But, my version of reality from what I've seen is that one of the big factors is regional.

Here at Pinon Hills (and I assume most of NM) there is less emphasis on ettiquitte and more on pace. That's not to say everyone is that way or that there aren't others who can do both. But the average typical weekend round is 4:20. Of course if you're first off it's probably alot faster and if your later it's likely longer. As a national average I think we do very well w/ pace as I assume most public's are in the 5 hour range. Exceptions will always be dependant on that one AS&&#@le or one grouping of same said orafice.

[Bill_McBride]

Pace is all a matter of perception and expectation.  IMHO.  Our club has an expectation of 3:30 and if you take longer, there will be repercussions.  Perhaps a less than gentle chiding in the grill after the round, or perhaps a reprimand from the professional staff.  But there are other groups who expect faster play.  There is one group that always tees off at 9 a.m. on Thursday, four retired military/naval guys.  They move around the course with pull carts at Panzer speed.  When one of their friends says, "Howdya do today?" they will answer proudly, "3 hours five minutes!"  That expectation will keep your average pace of play down.  And contrary to general expectation, ladies' groups play the same pace as men or perhaps faster.  They are less likely to do that surveying of the putt from three angles.

[Brad Swanson]

Turboe,
   The answer to you question on the public tracks here in Denver is "too long!", which is why I've only played 3 rounds here the entire year ( 2 of those 3 when guests were in town).  Slow play boils my blood, decreases the fun quotient, and in the end it sucks to realize you payed money to be so frustrated.
   On a side-note, the fishing has been pretty good this year!

Cheers,
Brad Swanson    

[Jeff Fortson]

Friendly round of golf..... 3:45

Competitive round of golf..... 4:30(max)  (should be 4:00)

Playing nine 18-hole rounds of golf in thirteen hours in a charity event to raise money for cancer and getting donations based on how many holes you can play from sun-up to sun-down.....

Priceless.

Jeff F.

[Steve Pozaric]

Today at Gateway National in St. Louis (across the river anyway), we teed off at 1206 and finished at 1700.  It was cart path only (for those that do not walk), but 5 hours is way to long.

In the pro shop, one of the workers said goal was 430, but weekend afternoons easily takes 5.  AAGGGHH.  

Stevepoz

[tonyt]

With an assortment of pairs, 3s and 4s on the course, and asuming I'm in a 2,3 or 4 myself;

About 3:45 - 4:45 walking.
About 4:00 - 5:15 in carts.

Of course, if playing in a twosome and both players have a cart, cartball then becomes faster than walking. By saying carts are slower, I'm assuming there are two players per cart.

These are CCFAD type figures. On a quieter track, or somewhere where more of the patrons are regular players, decrease these times by roughly half an hour.

[Steve_L.]

Playing solo - no doubt cart-ball speeds things up...  I play in about 2:15 solo in a cart.  Depending on the golf course, walking 18 holes is about 3 hours solo - a touch more if it's long, stretched out, or hilly.

I have a preshot routine, but don't take a practice swing (unless I have a funky shot) and don't make putting a science project.  

As much as I like to walk, its tough this time of year in the south.  I walked in the morning a couple of weeks ago - and could barely grip the club and my eyes stung with the sweat dripping into them - all by the 6th hole.

 

[bstark]

  3:45 is the specified time at our club. Ours is a private club which gets alot of play (20,000 plus rds.) If you come in over that you will get a letter.
   I have gotten one of them and I'll tell you why. One of my regular guys insists on marking his ball waiting for others to putt then puts his ball down, walks 10 paces behind the ball and proceeds to line it up. This is excruciating. He will not change his routine by simply placing the ball while others are putting and lining it up while everyone else is playing their putts. And of course he stands over the putt for what seems like an eternity. After a few holes the group behind is inevitably on our ass and he proceeds to tells US we need to speed it up!!!

[David Wigler]

Turboe,

My group of friends play Plum Hollow typically in about 3:45.  It is a floating group of single digits who gamble a little but no one is going to lose more than $50 in any given round.  That seems to be the standard pace of play for all on Saturday or Sunday morning.

In tournaments...Our Member-Member took exactly five hours both days (And one of the days was alternate shot, so only two people were putting) and our Invitational was this weekend.  The last round had both balls counting and my partner and I finished in a smooth 5:35.  It is torture.

[Doug Wright]

Normally about 3:45 for 3-4 walking at my private club. If I'm walking solo it's 2:30 or so. On public courses it's a crap shoot. I played a notoriously slow public course where 5 hour rounds are commonplace early yesterday morning, and our foursome walking finished in 3:45. Why? I think because the groups out early were sensitive to pace of play and were out there early for a reason--to play and get off the course to do other things.  As someone mentioned on this subject before, it only takes one slow bad apple to spoil the day of many behind.

--And BStark, I'd find another guy to play with if I were you...

All The Best,

[John_Conley]

Five in season at the better area courses.

No one playing them this summer, so 3:30 is a good number for four and less if you have just yourself or one other.

[billb]

Yesterday (Sunday) played Riverdale Dunes, a very good public course 45 minutes north of Denver. We teed off about 9:30 and it took 5 hours. This is typical for the area, anything under 5 hours on the weekend is good.
Yes, it was kind of slow, but it was a beautiful sunny day so who cares?
I was more annoyed by the member of my foursome who kept whining about the poor golfers in front of us rather than the poor golfers themselves.
Then again, I have only played a half dozen rounds all year due to back problems so any golf is good golf  
BB
PS I also used to hate carts but now that my back is messed up, riding allows me to play 18 holes and be able to walk the next day. Now cart golf is also so good golf

[Mickey Boland]

We played at my club yesterday in 3:30, riding, with one of the slowest members of the club in our group.  Foursome of all single digit players.  

Talking about situations that burn you up.  We came up to a fivesome teeing off on the tenth.  One member and four guests.  We watched the last two players hit, including one guy who hit his drive about 15 yards.  There was nobody behind us within 6 holes.  They looked at us and nodded and took off.  No hint of letting us through.  Course was empty so we went around them and went to the 12th tee.  Probably not the best course etiquette on our part, but we weren't going to wait and wonder when or if they were going to let us through.  

[Matt_Ward]

Turboe:

I'll say this for the upteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenth time -- the management of any facility is the one responsible for what is happening at any course.

In regards to the group you mentioned -- if no one was being held up then who really cares how long they play. Give them a plus ebcause they did permit you to play through. I know of many courses / situations where allowing someone to play through is looked upon as weakness.

Management sets the tone for what takes place -- like I've said before -- when the inmates run the asylum you have a crazy house indeed!

P.S. To answer you question -- it's highly unlikely that rounds can be played below 5 hours with the exception of private clubs that have limited play. Management at most clubs have interjected all sorts of items during one's round -- the K-Mart size refreshment cars are just one example.

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

Another thing that's been mentioned before re pace of play is the tee time policy. Running groups off every 8 minutes (or less) leads to more course congestion than a 9-10 minute policy. Most public courses have the former in their search for the almighty $$, private clubs the latter.  

[DMoriarty]

Turboe,

My regular weekly group is a floating foursome which usually runs the gamut of abilities-- It is not uncommon for us to have a 3 Index and a 3O+ Index in the same group.  We play very early in the morning and often have no one in front of us.  The course (Rustic Canyon) plays at 6900 yards, and has 3-4 long walks between tees, and plays half up a slight incline and half down the same incline.  We walk, we wager, we screw around a little.  We hit provisionals, we take our time on a few key shots.  While we almost always play some sort of matchplay, most of us hole out for handicap purposes. One of the regulars always starts his wristwatch timer on the first tee, so I have a very good idea of our pace over the last 4 months.  

I havent figured out the exact average time, but most of our rounds have taken between 3:40-3:50.  Our slowest round has been 4 hours, but we wrote that off to fog-- we couldnt see a thing for the first 9 holes.   Our fastest with a 4some is a little under 3:30.  Our back nine usually takes about 15-25 minutes longer; probably a combination of the longer distance, a few long walks (including a long walk to 10), lots of bullshitting, and the fact that we are usually well ahead of the group behind us, and enjoying a beautiful morning with the course to ourselves.

We make it clear to anyone we invite to play that they have to do what it takes to keep up and play a 3:45 round.  If they lollygag even a little we don't invite them back.

I have never bought the theory that bad golfers play slower.  I personally was as fast or faster when when I couldnt come close to breaking 110.  I am glad to finally have some actual times to back it up (the timekeeper is the 30+ Index.)

Contrary to Shivas' 2-3 minute estimate, I have no idea why it should take any more than 30 seconds to address the ball and hit the shot.  So if a hack hits 40 more shots than a scratch, that only adds 20 minutes to the round.  And Hacks are much more likely to move along when need be, while the scratch is probably going to go through his "routine" no matter what the circumstances.  Plus, if a hack is taking 30 seconds to putt, he/she is wasting everyone's time, including his/her own.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Your point about tee time intervals is well taken. Again -- management bears the burden because I have seen a few courses with intervals as little as 7-8 minutes per group. THAT IS INSANE ... A more realistic time amount would be no less than 10 minutes per group -- in fact 12 minutes per group would likely work even better at many municipal type courses but management frets about losing revenue over the concern for customer satisfaction when playing. Nothing like priorities!

Dave M:

Glad to hear what you do at Rustic Canyon ... self-policing goes a long way but the likelihood of other courses following the lead you mentioned is a long shot UNLESS management decides to be proactive in this regard.

To the group:

Most course management pays LIP SERVICE at best to slow play issues. They view slow play as being a necessary evil and figure if they jack the rates up to some super high level it will discourage others from playing and therefore whoever is left will have some spacing between them plus they will still keep their profit margin up. Sometimes that works during off season months, but when things get busy the amount charged has less of a factor. Go to any public course in the Scottsdale area during the winter months and you'll see what I mean.

I don't doubt individuals can help themselves as Dave pointed out is done at Rustic Canyon. But the reality is that many courses encourage endless stops for drinks and food.

Also, most facilities also have poorly trainded personnel who have little communication skills with the paying public beyond the generic Marine Corps bark!

If most facilities really scoped out their facility they would understand where the "hot spots" for slow play are and make sure personnel were present at all times to keep the parade going. Most facilities do not want to "confront" chronic slow players and as a result the rest of us who do want to keep moving are held hostage because of this ignorance.

I've waxed on and on about slow play as a golf writer and the reality is very simple -- management at many courses does very little, if anything at all. Until the paying public says do more it's likely the length of time on the course will only increase.

I'm waiting for the day when you don't need to rent a cart you simply pay a "trail" fee for your own car and they simply hook you up to an assembly line that pulls you through the course. Then you could bring your own CD's, TV and all the rest of the crap you can't bring now. I wonder why it hasn't been already.

[David Lott]

How long?

Today--front nine: 1:25
           back nine: 2:25

Hard to believe!

[Evan_Green]

Well all I can say is that when I was waiting on the 6th tee at Sharp Park last month for 4(!) foresomes in front of me to tee off, I knew that whatever was going on was too long!

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