[Carl Johnson]

For all the criticism the GCA.com search function gets, it can turn up some good info.

Carl doesn't seem to want to talk about his handicap on here (or to his doctor!), but has previously reported... (For what it's worth, age 71, high handicapper.)

The best exact read I can get to answer the calls for Carl's index comes from 2010: Right now my index is 19.2...

That said, his position has been so for some time: "I don't care what my handicap is. It is what it is. I don't measure my enjoyment of the game that way."

Carl may well say this "what's your handicap?!" business is just a case of dick-measuring, but as Carl himself said back in 2009, Length itself is immaterial.

But ain't his first anti-handicap rodeo, either...



The above is intended in good fun, for the "Melvyn Morrow" reply to the above of "how long did you spend stalking me?", it's as simple as cross searching a search term with a user ID. Takes all of a minute to create a list of every time a certain person has posted a certain word. If you cross-reference Pat Mucci's username with the word "moron", there's five pages of results!

Good work Scott!

[Carl Johnson]

For all the criticism the GCA.com search function gets, it can turn up some good info.

Nice investigative work, you must be a journalist.

It's easy to see why Mr. Johnson wouldn't like the question. The answer generally results in many presumptions which may or may not be true. Sure, someone might just be trying to be polite, ala Mr. Snead, but many aren't. I've seen many HHers on here dismissed out of hand. Sometimes we deserve it, and sometimes we don't.

But all of these things are true of most things in life. Almost everyone makes snap judgments based on minimal info, all the time. You just have to hope that people are thoughtful enough to reflect on their presumptions. Sadly, most aren't.

There is almost as much variation of types of each level of golfer as there is variation of opinions within any group of golfers. I personally don't believe most golfers understand how they or anyone else actually play the game, but maybe that's just a flawed presumption on my part...

George, I really don't mind being asked by someone who knows what a handicap is and what it isn't.  If I do answer the question in a general way (that is, not on the first tee) I always just give my index.  Of course, anyone (member or guest) can walk in our club pro shop and look at the posted sheets of indexes and a separate handicap for each set of four tees and three combinations (7 handicaps in all).  No need to ask there, and it rarely happens.  Often, however, the question is "what did you shoot."  I answer that question by saying "I posted ____," which is not what I shot because I was not playing medal play (rarely do).

I was originally driven to this issue from the liars thread (if one will go back and look at my first post).  It occurred to me, again, that the often irrelevant (didn't say always) focus on "what's your handicap" causes more folks lie (or fudge, if you will) about theirs.

Sometimes I get accused of being a sandbagger (playfully I hope) because I can on rare occassion play much better than one might think I could based on my handicap index.  On the other hand, I don't want to artificially lower my handicap because that would hurt my teammates in 4-ball matches or other team competitions.  It's tough to get it just right - we all know that.  Also, we all know the limitations of the handicap system, and what it's primary official purpose is, and that is to give weaker players a somewhat more fighting chance in "handicap" matches against stronger players.  That's all it is.

By the way, I think it's fine for others to evaluate the merits of what someone is saying about architecture or playing strategy, etc., based on their handicaps, if that what makes them happy.  I don't do that - I try to focus on the substance of what's being said, and how it's being said, and to decide if it makes sense or not.  But, whatever.

I've got to go to club now, not to practice but just hit some balls and then visit with the guys I couldn't play with today because I had a funeral to attend this morning - the funeral of an avid golfer who probably would have suggested I play rather than attend his funeral, but sadly I could not ask him.  I'll think about this issue some more and will try to refine my postion later.

[Steve Salmen]

For the first 20 years I did not have a handicap because I thought golf was too important to me for my entire game to be defined by a number. Then I joined a club and my ego got the better of me. I posted four good rounds and my index went down 2 shots.

BTW, I've played with Brad and I'd want a few more shots than our indexes indicate. One of the best putters I've ever seen. Keep up the good play.

[Garland Bayley]

Carl,

Next time someone asks you your handicap just say, "It's clearly higher than your IQ!"

 

[Andrew Buck]

I was originally driven to this issue from the liars thread (if one will go back and look at my first post).  It occurred to me, again, that the often irrelevant (didn't say always) focus on "what's your handicap" causes more folks lie (or fudge, if you will) about theirs.

I will say the one thing this site has helped me with is seeing the burdens of being too beholden to the GHIN, and that way of golf.  For example, I play a lot on a course at dawn before work with 4 par 3's between 190 and 205 from the gold tees.  I almost always walk, either by myself or with one of my co-workers.  I always said that one hole played much better from 160 yards, plus provided variety (and for an added bonus, the back tee on this hole is the longest tee to green walk), yet I always played the gold out of respect for the GHIN, I mean what if I make a par instead of bogey, and that causes me one shot less and I lose an important match?  What if I get hot and shoot the course record and it doesn't count? 

This site has helped me see golf is really more about fun, and if you want to play one hole 30 yards shorter for variety and to save 60 yards of walking, just do it. 

As for "the question" I have no problem with it generally, but I don't really like the expectations it can create when playing with someone new for business reasons on unfamiliar courses.  I'm used to competitive golf, so that doesn't bother me, and I don't mind giving shots in almost all club or fun matches.  That said, I do admit I feel a little awkward saying I'm a 1, or scratch or plus 1 when I'm out with a relatively new business contact at his club.  It may be in my head, but I think a lot of casual 15 handicap players project a scratch golfer to be better than they really are.  I feel like when people don't know your handicap, and a player goes around in 77 - 78 and hit a few poor drives and a flubbed chip (and all the 15's shoot low 90's) people come away thinking "he's a pretty good golfer".  I've felt with handicaps, if you shoot that same 77 and there can be some thinking "Is he really a scratch?" 

[Garland Bayley]

Andrew,

The USGA publishes a table for making handicap adjustments on length played. You simply us the rating for the tees predominantly played, then calculate the difference in length for what you actually played, look that up in the table for the adjustment, then post using the new rating you have calculated.

Sorry if I return you to your sordid ghin slave life style.

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew,

The USGA publishes a table for making handicap adjustments on length played. You simply us the rating for the tees predominantly played, then calculate the difference in length for what you actually played, look that up in the table for the adjustment, then post using the new rating you have calculated.

Sorry if I return you to your sordid ghin slave life style.

Thanks, good to know. 

[Carl Johnson]

Carl,

Next time someone asks you your handicap just say, "It's clearly higher than your IQ!"

 

Good comeback.  Of course, I wouldn't use it in real life (unless maybe after too many drinks), and certainly not with my doctor (who I don't drink with).  Seriously, I don't mind answering that question put the proper way at the proper time (as I define it).  You're at a party, you meet someone for the first time, and he/she has just learned you play golf and the first thing out of his/her mouth is, "What's your handicap?"  I don't think that's the proper way to start a conversation about golf.  I think those who do that screwed up - sorry if this offends anyone.  I certainly don't do that.  In fact, I enjoy talking about handicaps and the intricacies of the handicap system and how it enables golfers of varying abilities to play competitive matches against each other.  But if some stranger right off the bat asks me my handicap at a party, am I'm going to lauch into a detailed discussion of the HC system in response?  Of course not.

In short, and getting back to what I thought was my main point, I think fewer folks would be inclined to fudge about their handicaps if there was a better general understanding about what a handicap is - how it's determined - and what it's intended to be used for by those who established the system.  And, that when used outside the context of a handicap match it is not a measure of anything other than a good but imprecise relative measure of golf skill level.

By the way, I don't know the nationality of most of you.  If any golfers other than USA golfers (which I am) have gotten this far, do you perceive a difference in perception between USA golfers and those from your countries about the "What's your handicap?" qustion.

[Brent Hutto]

I never get asked that. When people hear me say something about playing golf they'll often ask some variation on "So are you a pretty good player" but it's not typically in reference to handicap. Non-golfers just want to know if I'm any good or not (I'm not, BTW).

Interestingly, when I encounter another golfer in a casual situation and golf comes into the conversation the most common question I get is "Where do you play"" which honestly I think is more interesting opening conversational gambit than "What do you shoot" or something about handicaps...

[Andrew Buck]

Brent,

Your experience is similar to mine, and handicap usually only come up well into a conversation.

[Steve Lang]

   so what about when someone says, I've been as low as a 5.1 and am now a TX 12...  or a 15

my favorite response: "my love of golf"... " I have special needs!"

[Sean_A]

Carl

To be honest, I don't bring up golf at parties and if someone else does I try to steer away from the conversation.  I have learned that my ideas about the game, courses etc do not match those of the majority of golfers and discussing them is a waste of time.  So if someone opens with "handicap" it makes for a quick way to exit the conversation - perfect.

Ciao  

[Steve Kline]

Sean - if I followed your rule about different ideas I would have nothing to talk about at parties. 

[C. Squier]

As I think more about this topic, I guess I understand why it can be a hard answer to give.  When playing "work golf" with a new customer, I often find myself protecting the feelings of a lesser player when/if they ask me what my handicap is.  I'm a low single and the answer can often make my playing partner pretty nervous.  Not the best start to a day....and I'll try to soft sell the implications of the difference in handicaps by saying the purpose of the day isn't to compete, but to have a nice enjoyable day on the golf course.  

Outside of work golf, when there is a big disparity in handicaps I've often seen the higher hdcp say something to the effect of "you wouldn't want to play with me, I shoot in the 100's". If you play at a sub 4 hour pace and love the game, we'll be best friends for that 4 hours.  What you shoot is immaterial. I'm sure there are some ability snobs who wouldn't want to play, but I believe most good players aren't so shallow that they mind playing with someone of lesser ability.  

But I still maintain "what's your handicap" is the easier ice breaker golf question. I can't think of another question that would summarize a golfer in the time it takes to ride an elevator.  Face it, there are only so many people you can ask, "Shinny or National?" to who would get it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Andrew,

The USGA publishes a table for making handicap adjustments on length played. You simply us the rating for the tees predominantly played, then calculate the difference in length for what you actually played, look that up in the table for the adjustment, then post using the new rating you have calculated.

Sorry if I return you to your sordid ghin slave life style.

Here is another example of the rules of golf benefiting the cheater.  I can understand a pro establishing a different rating and slope for posting a given tournament scores but using this table on your own only serves one purpose.  Nefarious needledicking your handicap so you can rob your friends and fellow members.

Specifically 5-2g of the following: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew,

The USGA publishes a table for making handicap adjustments on length played. You simply us the rating for the tees predominantly played, then calculate the difference in length for what you actually played, look that up in the table for the adjustment, then post using the new rating you have calculated.

Sorry if I return you to your sordid ghin slave life style.

Here is another example of the rules of golf benefiting the cheater.  I can understand a pro establishing a different rating and slope for posting a given tournament scores but using this table on your own only serves one purpose.  Nefarious needledicking your handicap so you can rob your friends and fellow members.

Specifically 5-2g of the following: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/

Does seem like a lot of work, especially considering I would guess most rounds the cumulative difference between rated tees and where the actually reside are at least 50 yards.

[Paul Jones]

Carl,

I usually ask someone on the 1st tee to see if they want to play for something - usually I say lets play for who buys at the turn and then we can adjust for the back nine.  I am a 4 handicap and tell the person so they don't think I am trying to sandbag.

In Brad's book Wide Open Fairways - Postscript, he mentions that Committee/Boards should NOT hold someone with a lower handicap as a higher vote or authority.

I usually don't care what a persons handicap is as long as the keep up - please don't line up a putt for a snowman.

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