News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.

Pages: [1]

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Theodore Moreau
« on: September 09, 2013, 03:18:58 PM »
I was just browsing in The Architects of Golf and noticed that Theodore Moreau died in 1942 fairly young. Anybody have any history on that? I would think he was too old to have died in the war.
Logged

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 03:24:02 PM »
How old was he? I've read that he was 40 when Lawsonia was completed in 1930, but I've also seen him credited for building courses as early as 1901. I've never been able to find much information on him. There's relatively little on Langford as well, but Moreau seems like one of the real forgotten men of the Golden Age.
Logged
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 05:11:32 PM »
GCA poster Dan Moore probably knows as much about Moreau as anyone on the board.

His grandson, who I met once at a GCA Langford/Moreau outing a few years back, is (or was a few years ago) a member of Ozaukee CC, a L/M in suburban Milwaukee: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44430.0.html
Logged

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 05:53:50 PM »
Yes, his other grandson was from Oregon or Washington and there that weekend for the L&M tour.  I think a daughter was there as well, IIRC.  Wasn't Morreau a bit like Raynor in that he brought the engineering side to the partnership and Langford brought the golf playing and historical smarts as it related to the latest golf design theory of the day?  We never established if Langford or Morreau actually knew Raynor or discussed design principles, but wouldn't it be most logical that Morreau being an engineer knew Raynor before the likelihood of Lanford?  Yet, IIRC, Langford had the Yale connection, correct?   Where is Dan Moore when you need him?  ;) ;D
Logged
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 08:13:23 PM »
1890-1942. Earliest credit I saw was for 1921. Clovernook might have been pretty early on Jason. Unless of course he had a routing for Merion at age 11 ;D
Logged

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 08:57:58 PM »
He worked on Ravisloe in Chicago, allegedly, in 1901. Unless it was his father or something. Or perhaps his work was later. Not sure, but Ravisloe certainly claims him.

Clovernook does seem like it came pretty early in the Langford and Moreau partnership though. It's neat to see some of their holes that almost became "templates" from out there. 6 is a smaller version of 10 at Lawsonia. 5 has some similarities with 4 at Spring Valley strategically even if the form is quite different. 14's green is a predecessor to 15 at Harrison Hills. 16 feels a bit like 9 at Lawsonia. And of course, the greens throughout the course really set the tone for what you find on their later courses, and arguably surpass their later efforts.
Logged
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 10:03:43 PM »
Architects of Golf has both Langford and Moreau working on Ravisloe and lists Robert White as an earlier architect. He's another interesting character that not a lot is known about from the built up green school. James Foulis who is listed on the Ravisloe site seems much more likely to have been involved in the original design than Moreau ( at least to me) just from an age standpoint. Langford and Moreau formed their design partnership in 1918 I think.
Logged

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2013, 07:39:33 AM »
Quote from: Nigel Islam on September 09, 2013, 10:03:43 PM
Architects of Golf has both Langford and Moreau working on Ravisloe and lists Robert White as an earlier architect. He's another interesting character that not a lot is known about from the built up green school. James Foulis who is listed on the Ravisloe site seems much more likely to have been involved in the original design than Moreau ( at least to me) just from an age standpoint. Langford and Moreau formed their design partnership in 1918 I think.

Nigel,

Well if L & M did work on the course, it was either quite minimal as I do not believe there is a single green out there that resembles anything like the greens at Lawsonia, Spring Valley, Marquette, etc.  I have always been of the belief that Moreau who handled much of the field side of the work made sure the final product had that engineered L & M look (and no I don't thing it looks natural and love it for it!!).  I have played several courses that Bill Langford was a solo architect on and the greens / bunkering is no where near as bold as the courses they both worked on.

Chris
Logged

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2013, 08:53:50 AM »
I know he was here in Texarkana pre 1914, because we celebrate our Centenary next year and the original layout opened in 1914.
Logged

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2013, 10:09:29 AM »
From Ravisloe's course history (http://www.ravisloecountryclub.com/history/):

Quote
The original golf course, laid out by Theodore Moreau and James Foulis, covered only 101 acres of the Briggs property and was reasonably playable by fall of 1901. A modest frame cottage served as the original clubhouse. By June 1902, the golf course had undergone drainage improvements, a second frame clubhouse was in use and an early Green Committee chair had commissioned the scientific reconstruction of the greens.

There is no mention of Langford.

There weren't very good child labor laws at the time right? Maybe an 11 year old Teddy was out there and going wild with a shovel. I really don't know what to think.

Logged
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2013, 10:26:56 AM »
At Winnetka GC (Ill.), Langford designed the original nine holes in 1914 and the additional nine holes in 1922 that completed the 18 hole course.  The course history does not mention Moreau.

http://www.winpark.org/golf-club/general-info/wgc_history.aspx
Logged
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2013, 10:36:26 AM »
I'm not near any reference material at the moment; but did Morreau work with Langford at American Park Builders before Bendelow took over that post from Langford?  
Logged
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 10:57:29 AM »
I played at Lawsonia with Moreau's grandson over the 4th of July weekend.  According to the family Moreau suffered a heart attack.  I have documented some early background on Moreau was born in Montague, Mass. in 1890 and later worked as a tree surgeon in Chicago in the teens.  No way he worked at Ravisloe in 1901 and this is the first I have heard of L/M doing any work there. Its possible they did something later to supplement Foulis, Watson and Ross.  

First mention I have of Langford Moreau working together is when they founded the firm in 1918 after Langford left American Park Builders.  MWP interesting that Texarkana is that early.  If Langford designed the course then it might be his first 18 hole course.  I doubt he did though and its more likely L/M did a redesign in the 20's.  What documentation does the club have of their involvement at that date?  
Logged
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 11:27:15 AM »
Dan,I will find out...

You are indeed correct.
Design work was done in 1922 with construction starting the following year.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:34:59 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »
Logged

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2013, 06:11:44 PM »
Dan that is awesome information! Thanks a lot. If you have any more Langford/Moreau tidbits I'd love to hear them either by PM or in the thread!
Logged

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2013, 11:41:55 PM »
Michael, is the Texarkana course the same as the Al Amin Temple course or are they different courses?
Logged

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2013, 09:04:09 AM »
Nigel
I am not at all familiar with the Al Amin course you mentioned ????????
So I imagine they are different.
Texarkana CC was eatablished in 1914 and then in 1922 L&M came down to design the current 18 holes.
The original routing is still in play although most of the green complexes have been altered.
There is still sufficient green work to clearly see the L&M touch though, and it truly is a hidden gem of a course.
Logged

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2013, 09:57:53 AM »
Nigel:

The Al Amin course was in (or near) Little Rock.  The following has a brief description of the shrine and the course.

http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=6282

Sven
Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2013, 12:30:36 PM »
Sven,
Not sure that course still exists but have put out some feelers to find out.
That would be about 140 miles East of Texarkana CC.

http://www.texarkanacc.com/
Logged

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2013, 12:36:37 PM »
Was the Al Amin course really a Langford?
Logged

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2013, 02:31:35 PM »
I have reached out today to peopel who I thought I would have some input, without any success at all.
Logged

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2013, 09:59:11 AM »
I believe C&W lists Al Amin as a L&M.  The course was built in 1927 and was gone ten years later.

Texarkana CC is noted as having its first 9 date to 1914, with L&M coming in around 1927 (the club website notes 1922) to revise the existing 9 and add an additional 9 holes.  TCC was one of the 7 founding clubs of the ASGA in 1915.

The major player in the design of early courses in Arkansas was Herman Hackbarth, who supposedly had a hand in over 40 courses in the state.  I have notations for maybe a dozen courses that he has been tied to, but the rest remain a mystery.

Sven
Logged
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2013, 10:39:24 AM »
Thanks Sven. I guess since C&W didn't mention the TCC they may just have this one a little jumbled. Of course maybe since the year L & M were there is the same, they could be right......I was trying to locate the footprint for the course on the map, but can't really locate Pine Lake.
Logged

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Theodore Moreau
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2013, 02:46:29 PM »
Sven.
It was certainly 1922 as there are numerous pictures of the course pre 1927 that are of the L&M 18.
They redid everything about the original nine and added a new 9,the routing of which all 18 is still in play today.
Logged
Pages: [1]
Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back