[Carl Johnson]

What do members of this board with more local knowledge of St. Andrews than I have (I have no local knowledge!) think about this excerpt from a recent Ferguson newsletter?

Who’s the Bully in St. Andrews? And Where Does the Links Trust Stop or Get Stopped?

Not content in their scandalous handling of advance reservations and their continuing unethical relationship with The Old Course Experience, the big story out of St. Andrews this summer is the attempt by the Links Trust to trademark the town name of  “St. Andrews” in conjunction with such terms as “golf,” “Old Course” and “Home of Golf” and, in the process, force certain businesses, local and otherwise, to change their names or go to court. Thankfully, some have chosen to go to court. Litigation is in process with the promise of some resolution by the end of summer.

In the July 5 issue of Golfweek, Alistair Tait  did a good job of summarizing the discontent in La-La Land (St. Andrews). For some reason his article has not appeared for wider circulation in the online version of Golfweek. I wonder why. It’s the most important article they’ve run in years.

. . . St. Andrews Golf Company, one of the targets of the Links Trust . . . manufacturers classic golf clubs and sells product in every corner of the globe. Predecessors of his company (now absorbed) have been in business in St. Andrews since 1881. Now the Links Trusts has demanded that Mr. Glen change the name of his company because they think it infringes on their “trademark.” . . .
 
. . . It’s all gone too far. The natives are restless and change must happen in St. Andrews before outraged citizens start marching in the streets. After all, who says it should take $24.3 million to run seven golf courses? And please contemplate the breathtaking arrogance of director Euan Loudon when he says, “We are perfectly entitled to generate income by any means we can and plow it back into the golf courses” (and restaurants and clothing shops and golf shops and souvenirs). Their charge is to run the golf courses, not to create a financial and intellectual-property empire.  

For years I have maintained that, because the Links Trust was set up by an Act of Parliament, the only way it can be changed is by an Act of Parliament. Where are the leaders who will make that happen? And why is it that a story like this appears only in an American publication? Where are the “conjones” in the Scottish sport media? Hey, fellas, we can’t do it from America. And, by the way, has anyone ever considered electing members of the LT Board of Trustees instead of having them appointed by insiders? That would sure open up Trust policies to debate. The St. Andrews Links Trust as currently constituted needs to be stopped.

[Jon Wiggett]

Carl,

do not know if you mean you have no knowledge of this topic or that no one else has more

This is something that has been rumbling in the background for a while now. The problem is that the Trust should be running the courses for the good of the wider population but it has now lost site of this and is only interested in making as much money as possible. Is it really $ or rather £ either way at an average of over 3.5 million per course that seems a massive budget.

I think the fact that the article has been pulled is a telling sign as to who will win this particular battle.

Jon

[Carl Johnson]

Carl,

do not know if you mean you have no knowledge of this topic or that no one else has more

Sorry, Jon.  What I meant was that I have no knowledge of the topic at all from the perspective of Fife locals in particular, or Scots in general or even from those with good second hand information.  So, I was thinking that others who do have good first or second hand local knowledge/perspective could help me (and others like me) out on the issues that Ferguson, an American (as I am), has raised.  I've changed the wording of my original post - for the better, I hope.  Carl

This is something that has been rumbling in the background for a while now. The problem is that the Trust should be running the courses for the good of the wider population but it has now lost site of this and is only interested in making as much money as possible. Is it really $ or rather £ either way at an average of over 3.5 million per course that seems a massive budget.

I think the fact that the article has been pulled is a telling sign as to who will win this particular battle.

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Carl

Mr. Ferguson speaks with unforked tongue.  The Links Trust was a good idea when it was created, but it is now (and has been for nearly 10 years) an out of control monopoly, as Mr. Ferguson details above.

OOPS, MY SESSION TIMED OUT YET AGAIN!!!!!!!  SPEAKING OF OUT OF CONTROL MONOPOLIES, HOW ABOUT GOLF CLUB ATLAS.COM..............

[john_stiles]

Pinehurst went through a similar naming issue in 1999.   Two golf clubs had to drop the word Pinehurst from their name,   Pinehurst National, and Pinehurst Plantation.

The Village of Pinehurst officials sued Pinehurst Inc. and if memory is correct,  without subsequent court action needed,  the resort made it clear that existing local businesses could continue to use Pinehurst in their name, with the exception of core business golf competitors.  Though the local village did have to take some action due to perceived outcomes of the naming issue.

As to Links Trust, wow !    $ 24 million to run 7 courses in Scotland !    Yikes.  

There must be monies spent on something else, other than golf course maintenance and green changes.  Sounds like a large marketing budget. I guess the other courses need love as well.

What other activities or services involve the Links Trust,  outside of Operation and Maintenance for  7 courses ?

[Niall C]

Is that to run seven courses or to staff the Links Trust ? Or maybe to provide the staff for the retail outlets..........sorry I mean clubhouse. The last time I was there they even had someone outside the visitors clubhouse standing at a podium like some sort of maitre de taking bookings. What's wrong with the traditional level of Scottish service where you have to queue up at the bar which doubles as the pro shop where there's only one member of staff serving drinks, taking greenfees and in their spare time cutting the greens. What's wrong with that, eh ?

Niall

[Wayne_Kozun]

For years I have maintained that, because the Links Trust was set up by an Act of Parliament, the only way it can be changed is by an Act of Parliament.

Which parliament now has jurisdiction over this?  Is it Westminster or Edinburgh?

[Carl Johnson]

For years I have maintained that, because the Links Trust was set up by an Act of Parliament, the only way it can be changed is by an Act of Parliament.

Which parliament now has jurisdiction over this?  Is it Westminster or Edinburgh?

My quick research indicates Westminster originally set up the arrangement.  Not being current on the relative authorities of the parliments today, I cann't say about "now."  I'd hope a Scot could fill us in.  Regarding the Act of Parliment that set up the current arrangement, here's what one website says: "The UK Government extensively reorganised local government in 1974, altering county boundaries (e.g. Royal Liverpool was wrenched out of Cheshire), removing some counties altogether (e.g. Rutland), and creating some new counties (e.g. Merseyside, where Royal Liverpool now found itself).  Within this reform was the fear that the custody of the Links would be usurped by a remote Fife Council.  Together, the Town Council and the R&A set up a trust to protect the links for public use, and repeal the Act of 1894. Thus, an Act of Parliament in 1974 created the St Andrews Links Trust, who are now charged with the management of all the course on the links. The land is owned by Fife Regional Council, though."

I find this sentence interesting: "Within this reform was the fear that the custody of the Links would be usurped by a remote Fife Council."  I guess remoteness depends on your point of view.  Also, "usurped" ??

[Carl Johnson]

. . .
As to Links Trust, wow !    $ 24 million to run 7 courses in Scotland !    Yikes.  

There must be monies spent on something else, other than golf course maintenance and green changes.  Sounds like a large marketing budget. I guess the other courses need love as well.

What other activities or services involve the Links Trust,  outside of Operation and Maintenance for  7 courses ?

From a Links Trust or related website that I've lost track of: "The Trust was established in 1974. It employs more than 300 permanent staff and seasonal workers during the high season. . . . The Old Course is at the heart of the Links but it is part of a family of six public courses, three of which are well over 100 years old. Around 200,000 rounds of golf a year are played on the Links with its three championship courses, the Old, the New and the Jubilee, two 18 hole courses, the Eden and the Strathtyrum, and the nine-hole Balgove Course. The Trust manages a number of additional facilities including the Links, Eden and Castle Course clubhouses, the Golf Practice Centre and Golf Academy and five shops. Any revenues generated go back into the running of the historic courses.  A seventh course, The Castle Course, opened for play in 2008 . . . ."

[Marty Bonnar]

Payroll alone is nearly 7.5mil:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=links%20trust%20annual%20report&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.standrews.org.uk%2Fgetmedia%2F25caf981-2195-4a98-83dc-eebe4fb8977f%2FAnnual-Report-Accounts-2012.pdf&ei=YkkmUs21DoSEhQeN64Ew&usg=AFQjCNHnyN6hsLix11clVebdxl4lF0Oufg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.ZG4

[Jon Wiggett]

Payroll alone is nearly 7.5mil:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=links%20trust%20annual%20report&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.standrews.org.uk%2Fgetmedia%2F25caf981-2195-4a98-83dc-eebe4fb8977f%2FAnnual-Report-Accounts-2012.pdf&ei=YkkmUs21DoSEhQeN64Ew&usg=AFQjCNHnyN6hsLix11clVebdxl4lF0Oufg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.ZG4

Wow, that means an average of £25K per employee including the seasonal.

Jon

[Mark Chaplin]

The number of people on £60k plus isn't great (6) but pay rises of 2.3% and 2.4% over the past two years is generous when there is a public sector pay freeze.

[Carl Johnson]

Question: Again, for those more in the know than I am (I am not in the know at all!).  Is this a situation in which there may be some money making for the leaders going on, or is it simply a "power trip," or just the ancient political story of bureaucracies building and protecting their turf?

[Niall C]

Carl

Not exactly sure what your question is but if its generally on why the big budgets and costs then I'd suggest it's because they can. I don't think the guys running the trust are after world domination, after all they are geographically restricted. They are however in the lucky position of having a unique product with seemingly infinite demand irrespective of what they put the prices up to. I suspect if they were an unfettered commercial operation the green fees would be significantly higher and they would still have folk queuing up to play TOC, and to a lesser extent the other courses.

Raising prices is one way of trying regulate demand, and once you do that and still make a wad of cash you naturally feel inclined to invest in the "business" which they obviously have done. The clubhouses are magnificent by Scottish standards, and I expect even for public courses in the US (of which I'm no expert) and are staffed to the hilt in a way you wouldn't find anywhere else over here.

While the traditionalist in me would like to see less glitz/service in exchange for lower green fees, a lot of overseas golfers expect all the extra stuff. With regards the trademarking, they are trying to protect their interests and I don't doubt they are sensitive to the reaction and I dare say have tried to avoid unnecessary conflict but at the end of the day they have to try and protect what they see as their interests. And as sensitive as they might try to be (and I've no personal knowledge of how they have handled the issue) you will always have the wee guy against the big bully scenario that the papers love to report.

Hope that answers the question.

Niall

 

[Wayne_Kozun]

What happens if the Trust runs more than a modest profit?  Does it get put into a Reserve fund?  Is there a limit on how much their turnover can exceeed expenses, thereby naturally pushing expenses higher?

[Carl Johnson]

Niall, Thanks answering.  I'd put your answer in the category of "the ancient political story of bureaucracies building and protecting their turf," although not with the cynicism my wording implies.  It makes sense.

Regarding your: "The clubhouses are magnificent by Scottish standards, and I expect even for public courses in the US (of which I'm no expert) and are staffed to the hilt in a way you wouldn't find anywhere else over here."

I've been to St. Andrews three times.  The first, about 20 years, included a visit to the British Golf Museum and a walk on TOC Sunday when it was closed to play.  No golf for me.  After that I went back twice and played TOC, New and Jubilee.  On the first of those two visits (as on the second) I experienced what I think they call the Links Clubhouse, over in the New/Jubilee area.  I guess I had been naïve – it was so much fancier than I had anticipated.  At first I really wondered if I was in the right place.  Not just at first.  I could not believe I was in a public space.

Regarding your: "With regards the trademarking, they are trying to protect their interests and I don't doubt they are sensitive to the reaction and I dare say have tried to avoid unnecessary conflict but at the end of the day they have to try and protect what they see as their interests. And as sensitive as they might try to be (and I've no personal knowledge of how they have handled the issue) you will always have the wee guy against the big bully scenario that the papers love to report."

This brings me back to clubhouse, too.  With all I'd ever read about St. Andrews I had become focused on the idea of a town with historic public golf courses that were, more or less, seamlessly integrated.  A real place.  As I've thought about my experiences since, and try to compare it to other golf experiences, I'd liken it more to a golf resort experience – not quite the "real thing."

So, what I'd prefer to see is the Links Trust embracing the heritage, rather than trying to transform it.  (Am I fair, or not, in thinking this is what I see going on?)  In the context to the trademark issue (I used to be a lawyer, but not a trademark lawyer), when you have the town and golf so linked over centuries, I wonder how so late in the game the Trust can decide it deserves to take over the heritage for just itself and the courses, and, apparently, disregard the town and its businesses that are part of the heritage.

As an American outsider, and I take it you are not, these are some brief observations.  Any comments?

[Rich Goodale]

Carl

The Links Trust is legally obligated to look after local players (including university students), members of the Cheape family (who owned and sold the land to what is now the LT) and worldwide members of the various clubs (R&A, New, St. Rules, etc.), and this they do.  However, if you don't fall into any of these categories and want a guaranteed tee time, there is only one way to go, and it makes a round on the Old Course the most expensive in the world (as far as I know)--even for residents of Fife such as me.  Check out the following link and do the math.

http://www.oldcourse-experience.com/standrews.htm#2

Rich

[Carl Johnson]

Carl

The Links Trust is legally obligated to look after local players (including university students), members of the Cheape family (who owned and sold the land to what is now the LT) and worldwide members of the various clubs (R&A, New, St. Rules, etc.), and this they do.  However, if you don't fall into any of these categories and want a guaranteed tee time, there is only one way to go, and it makes a round on the Old Course the most expensive in the world (as far as I know)--even for residents of Fife such as me.  Check out the following link and do the math.

http://www.oldcourse-experience.com/standrews.htm#2

Rich

Rich, you live in Fife, but are not a "local player," if I understand you correctly.  What's the definition of "local player"?  Must you live with the geographical political limits of St. Andrews?

[Sean_A]

Carl

There are all sorts of season tickets one can buy.  Townies are guaranteed a ticket, but I think there is a limit on out of town tickets - maybe 1000 or 1500.  It is probably decided by ballot if too many apply.  I think if you are a member of a town club you are also entitled to season ticket.  I doubt many get the opportunity now, but I knew a guy who lived in Worcestershire and wasn't a member of a town club who purchased a season ticket for a few years.  At the time it was quite expensive, something like double his local club dues, but he went to Scotland about 30 times in that period.  I think in the end he joined The New Golf Club with through folks he met playing golf.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Carl

The Links Trust is legally obligated to look after local players (including university students), members of the Cheape family (who owned and sold the land to what is now the LT) and worldwide members of the various clubs (R&A, New, St. Rules, etc.), and this they do.  However, if you don't fall into any of these categories and want a guaranteed tee time, there is only one way to go, and it makes a round on the Old Course the most expensive in the world (as far as I know)--even for residents of Fife such as me.  Check out the following link and do the math.

http://www.oldcourse-experience.com/standrews.htm#2

Rich

Rich, you live in Fife, but are not a "local player," if I understand you correctly.  What's the definition of "local player"?  Must you live with the geographical political limits of St. Andrews?

I don't really know, Carl, as I've never tried to get one of the tickets, but I'm pretty sure that they are limited to residents of either St. Andrews itself or "North East Fife" which is the parliamentary constituency in which St. Andrews lies.

Rich

[Marty Bonnar]

I think you need to be able to provide documentation that says you have a St Andrews (KY16) postcode. In the past, I believe certain wealthy, unscrupulous furriners simply bought a wee pied a terre in the auld toun and used that as their way to a cheape (sic) links ticket. Oh, I'm sure it doesn't happen now, oh no, definitely not.
F.

[Sean_A]

I think you need to be able to provide documentation that says you have a St Andrews (KY16) postcode. In the past, I believe certain wealthy, unscrupulous furriners simply bought a wee pied a terre in the auld toun and used that as their way to a cheape (sic) links ticket. Oh, I'm sure it doesn't happen now, oh no, definitely not.
F.

This can't be right because local club members can purchase some type of ticket and I guarantee not all club members live in KY16. What sort of set-up would require a local club member to pay a green fee everytime he played?  I suspect the clubs would empty out if this were the case .

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

The ultra cheap £200 a year ticket is for locals. Members of the New etc who aren't local pay more for a season ticket.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I think you need to be able to provide documentation that says you have a St Andrews (KY16) postcode. In the past, I believe certain wealthy, unscrupulous furriners simply bought a wee pied a terre in the auld toun and used that as their way to a cheape (sic) links ticket. Oh, I'm sure it doesn't happen now, oh no, definitely not.
F.

I was recently told of a 'gentleman' who has a mobile home nearby and spends his summers there playing golf.  Another Fife resident told me he must have registered it as his home,  for voting and with a local GP to get full rights to a ticket.

[Sean_A]

I think you need to be able to provide documentation that says you have a St Andrews (KY16) postcode. In the past, I believe certain wealthy, unscrupulous furriners simply bought a wee pied a terre in the auld toun and used that as their way to a cheape (sic) links ticket. Oh, I'm sure it doesn't happen now, oh no, definitely not.
F.

I was recently told of a 'gentleman' who has a mobile home nearby and spends his summers there playing golf.  Another Fife resident told me he must have registered it as his home,  for voting and with a local GP to get full rights to a ticket.

Spangles

Thats the rub - I think there are different classes of tickets available not only based on location but also within a club.  For instance, I know club members can buy competition only season tickets which makes a lot of sense because some members will roll into town for one or two big meetings a year and thats it. Bottom line, a season ticket is not a one size fits all deal.

Ciao

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