[Thomas Dai]

I recently visited for the first time this course laid out by Dr MacK in the late 1920's. It intrigued me.

Here's a puzzle. Which course is it and where is it located?

Here are some clues -

The Club was founded just after the turn of the 20th Century
It had to move location in the 1920's and Dr MacK laid out the new course
As far as I know no GCA photo tour has been conducted and, per the search engine, only very slight mention is made of this course on GCA
It lies less than 10 miles from the centre of a large city
The local football team wear red shirts
Like Muirfield, the front-9 circles around the outside of the course and the back-9 routes within it

Here's the course routing



Here are some views of the 8th hole, a 400 yd slightly downhill par-4 hole which IMO displays nicely the intricacy of each holes green complexes and bunkering. Shame about the ghastly building in the far background. Fortunately it's the only eyesore visible from the course, the rest of the boundary being trees, shrubs and gardens. There was no housing etc around the course apparently when DrMacK laid out the course.

Given that the layout is the work of the King of Camouflage, how far in reality is the bunker on the right from the front edge of the green?



According to my rangefinder, the top lip of the bunker to the front edge of the green is 45 yds, the bunker being set at the top of a hollow and the front of the green at the point where the hollow rises up again. Cunning old rascal! It still doesn't look 45 yds in this photo taken from closer to the green, but it is.



Here's another photo of the 8th, taken from just short of the green on the left side. Unfortunate about the condition of the lip. Over the back of the green, immediately adjacent in best Dr MacK format, is the next tee. Behind the tee is a stream.



And finally, a view taken from behind the 8th green looking back up the fairway. Tapered narrow green at the front edge widening out at rear with run-off on the left side (right side in this photo).



Every green/bunker complex on this course a very similar in style to the 8th hole. I don't believe any tweaks have been done to the green complexes/bunkers since the course was laid out.

Which course is this?

All the best.

PS - more photos to follow in a day or so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thomas,

Football as in football or soccer?

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas,
Football as in football or soccer?

Soccer Pat, and as an extra clue for first response, the local teams nickname is 'The Saddlers'. Who'll be first to google or wiki this clue I wonder?
All the best.

[Mike Policano]

Dead give away, Walsall Golf Club

[Mike Policano]

A Londoner I know played there last year and enjoyed it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thomas,

Leave it to Mike Policano to figure it out, without the need to access "google" or "wiki"

He's good !

[Thomas Dai]

Dead give away, Walsall Golf Club

You and your Londoner friend deserve Walsall FC team shirts Mike. I wonder if they'd let you through the gates of Walsall GC wearing it though, dress code and all!

I thought Walsall was a most interesting course and I'm glad I visited it. Very enjoyable indeed, and to see so many, like all, the green complexes/bunkers appearing as unchanged/original Dr MacK was a surprise and a real treat. I shall go there again I'm sure.

I recommend Walsall to anyone, and Dr Mack fans and students really need to get along and play it sometime. It's only 5 minutes drive from the M6, just north of Birmingham and not really that far from the splendid Beau Desert plus Little Aston and Sutton Coldfield.

More photos to follow probably tomorrow.

I have altered the threads title following Mike's answer.

All the best.

[Mike Policano]

Thomas,

I played Dr. Mack's Claremont in Oakland, CA last year which another wonderful course. I may be headed to Southport again next year.  Maybe I can find some time to play Walsall.

[Bill_McBride]

Thomas,

I played Dr. Mack's Claremont in Oakland, CA last year which another wonderful course. I may be headed to Southport again next year.  Maybe I can find some time to play Walsall.

If you do, Mike, try to get to Beau Desert.  They have a dormie house so you can stay there on a side trip.  I liked a photo tour so was looking forward to playing it, but I was blown away.  Great Herbert Fowler course well worth a side trip.  

[Mat Poade]

I used to me a member at Walsall until I moved to Harborne.

It's a lovely course, but suffers terribly with drainage in the winter. Just as I was leaving they were spending a lot of money to try and correct this.

The closing 5 or 6 holes are a good test.

Mat

[Thomas Dai]

If you do, Mike, try to get to Beau Desert...... I was blown away. Great Herbert Fowler course well worth a side trip.  

Mike, I echo completely what Bill says about Beau Desert. If it were west of London it would be a household name like others in Surrey etc are.

Mat, I'd heard winter golf at Walsall is difficult due to the drainage and certainly observed how many drainage lines there are across numerous fairways, and some greens as well (greenbanding?). I found it rather difficult to concentrate on my game at Walsall, being constantly distracted by looking across at green complexes/bunkers on holes I'd already played or ones I was yet to play from various angles. Imagine this wouldn't be the case for a member, but it was for this enthusiastic visitor. And your right Mat, those last 5-6 holes are a very good test, holes where you really need to 'work'  the ball off the tee, which is pretty unusual these days.

What are your thoughts on the other courses around Birmingham?

All the best.

[Neil White]

Thomas,

In response to your question over courses in and around Brum - I have fond memories of playing golf twenty or so years ago at Pype Hayes.

I know little of its history other than it was opened in 1933 and it's purported to have been designed by Bobby Jones......?

What I do know is that it is a fantastic, albeit short, course which is far from typical municipal fare.  Okay the conditioning was sometimes questionable but I remember the greens to be small and the bunkering to be well placed.  As I say it has been a while but I have always meant to get back over there.

Neil.

[Sean_A]

I played Walsall once a few years back.  I recall a lot of left leggers and loose trees.  Some of the greens were quite good, but visually the course wasn't terribly appealing.  It struck me as very new because of the trees and flatish property despite its age.  

Just the other end of the M5/6 junction at West Bromwich is Sandwell.  It stuggles with drainage near the house just as Walsall does, but the terrain for large sections of the course is much more interesting.  Another Colt course is a few miles further toward Brum, Handsworth, is also worth a look if in that area.  But in truth, Mat has migrated to one of the better Brum courses in Harborne.  I expect at this moment the course in in great nick.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Neil,
I've not heard of Pype Hayes before. The reference to Bobby Jones is interesting as I seem to recall at photo of him playing at Blackwell. Not entirely sure where I saw the photo, it may even have been in the hallway of the Blackwell clubhouse.

Sean, I did wonder whether you'd been to Walsall! Sandwell is on my list, hopefully soon, on a winter arrangement provided ground conditions remain dry, otherwise maybe an Open comp there next season.

Back to Walsall as it were. This sign is displayed at the 1st tee. "At the time of opening in 1930 the SSS was 76 and 6 of the holes were par-5's"! How times change. I can't imagine the yardage has lowered over the years but Men's par is now 70 (don't know the SSS) and there are only 2 par-5's.



All the best.

[Mat Poade]

SS is 71. I can imagine the 5th being a par 5 at one point. Must be around 460 from the back tees doglegging to the right with OOB left. The 2 current par 5's both offer excellent birdie chances. A gripe i had with Walsall used to be the bunkers. I regularly played with a elderly gentleman who was a 5-6 handicapper. he used to PUTT out of a lot of bunkers, often getting up and down, his normal bunker play was good anyway. I don't think you should ever be able to putt out of a bunker!! But that was more to maintenance i suppose rather than design.



I think there are numerous good courses around Brum. As Sean said, Sandwell is a excellent course with challenging greens in the Summer, Sutton Coldfied is another favorite of mine. Probably biased but I think Harborne is up their with the best, I think the par 3's take some beating from the back tee's. Also Harborne is always in good condition, even in the wetter months its still drier than a lot of courses in the area. Little Aston is good, but a tad pricey. I had a round at Lickey Hills last week. Its a municipal just down the road from Blackheath golf club. I quite enjoyed it, reasonable condition, par 3's were a bit samey, all drop shot 3's. But the greens were really contoured, if it were a private course and the greens were pampered a bit more I could imagine them providing a real challenge.

Has anyone played Moor Hall? it's one I keep meaning to play and never get round to.

Mat

[Sean_A]

I played Moor Hall some time ago.  It didn't make much of an impression because of trees and the quagmire turf, but it may be time to have another go.   

I've had many a game round Lickey Hill.  As one would expect, its rough and ready.  Some of the slopes create a shooting range deal and it can be very challenging to hold greens.  Not bad for the money and sometimes it can be had for under a tenner. 

Just up the road is North WORCS, have you ever played it?

There is another club nobody ever talks about; Churchill & Blakedown - a 9 holer halfway between Kiddie and Stourbridge - not so far from Lickey.  There are a few very good holes there.  I haven't seen the course in many years.  This thread has prompted me to go have another look.

Ciao

[Mat Poade]

Do you remember the 3rd at Lickey? A par 4 with the biggest side sloping fairway i've ever seen. I don't think its possible to hold the fairway, but to be honest you've got a better approach from the right hand rough anyway.

I've played North Worcester in a local league match. There are some good deals for visitors. It's a nice enough course, a few too many trees in places, but some great holes at the start of the back 9. Well worth a visit with one of the deals (I heard £80 for a 4ball).

Yeah the one time i scheduled to play Moor Pool was after a deluge, so i declined and went to Sutton instead.

Oh and forgot to mention Pype Hayes, i heard they recently spent a couple of million on a new club house. Most of the council courses in Brum have been taken over by mytimeactive. Seems they are spending quite a lot of money on the courses.

Mat

[Neil White]

There is another club nobody ever talks about; Churchill & Blakedown - a 9 holer halfway between Kiddie and Stourbridge - not so far from Lickey.  There are a few very good holes there.  I haven't seen the course in many years.  This thread has prompted me to go have another look.

Ciao

Sean,

Give me a buzz if you do manage to get over to C&B - it is one I have never played despite being only a few minutes from my home.

Neil.

[Thomas Dai]

The two 18-hole heathlands at Enville are both very fine courses. The Highgate, tough track, lots of heather immediately adjacent to the fairways, has been used numerous times as a Regional Qualifier for The Open. If it were west of London it would get many plaudits.
South Staffs at Wolverhampton is very pleasant, tough track too, the holes get harder and harder the further around the course you progress and never get above the pin on the 17th.
I've also heard good words about Bewdley Pines, slightly shorter yardage but tight course, free draining. Located just west of Kiddiminster.
Plus there's the newby Astbury Hall near Bridgenorth, owned/designed/run by Ken Downing the guitarist of Judas Priest fame. Astbury is a long walk around but the course conditioning is absolutely sensational. Not expensive either.

Sounding like we need a GCA Brum-Midlands get-together sometime. From late October perhaps, when prices come down but the courses are still nice and dry for the most part. PM me if your interested in setting something up.

All the best.

[Thomas Dai]

Firstly, very nice to have Mat chip in on this thread with his experience as an ex-member there.

The left side of all the front-9 holes forms the property boundary and is heavily bounded by trees and shrubs. The 2nd-9 holes inside the loop are tree lined, quite tightly so in places. Sometimes trees are inappropriate, but at Walsall they appear to have been planted thoughtfully and are maintained in the same manner. As such they are not a burden but rather IMO enhance the course with a requirement for positional play and good use of angles. The par-3's are good holes. The par-5's are on the softer side. The longer par-4's play hard and the short par-4's, a couple of which are drivable, require thought and quality execution - they arn't just get out the Big Dog and wack it holes. Lots of course management is needed at Walsall.

Here are more photos of some of the green complexes/bunkers at Walsall.

Below - 290 yd uphill 1st hole with the green built below the crest of a rise. Green narrow at front. Wider at rear. Stepped green, but not a massively steep one. Photo taken from 70 yds out.


Below 400 yd par 4 3rd. Green from the left front corner. Green falls away at rear and to the right. As usual in photos, there is more slope than there appears. The 4th tee in background.


Below - same green as above (3rd) with photo taken from the rear left side. The green is approached from the right. Approaching from the left is the very fine long par-4 16th hole.


Below - short 280 yd par-4 6th with photo taken from 70 yds short of green. Flattish slight dogleg right-to-left. Narrow green in front widening at rear with step where widening commences. Easy hole to take out the Big Dog and to try to drive the green and instead end with a double-bogey.


Below - same green as above (6th) from front left edge of green. Widening of green at rear more apparent. Run-off at left side and rear more severe than the appear. Black and white flags in the distance are on the 13th and 12th greens.


Below 190 yd slightly uphill par-3 7th from the rear of the green. Bunker at front right of green. Green much wider at rear and slopes quite severely downwards from rear to front and also to the right at the front (left side in photo) and to the right at the rear (right side in photo).


Below - same green (7th) photographed from the left side at the rear of the green (right side in photo). Bunker, lip of which is visible, is very large. Green feeds off to left side (right side in photo). Good/nasty spot for a pin. OB nearby on the left along the entire side (right side in photos) of hole.


Below - 160 yd slightly uphill par-3 10th hole. Green sits at top of rise. Mound on left side, ridge across the middle, two bunkers and severe downslope at right. Green slopes from left-to-right throughout but also fist half of green slopes down to the front and rear half of the green slopes down to the rear.


Below - same hole (10th). Pin seemed near the front in previous photo but as photo below shows it isn't


Below - same hole (10th), with black and white flag, as viewed from behind. Other (yellow) flag is on the 12th green. Note earthworks in between the two greens. Best not to go long on the 10th.


Missed a few holes now due to camera operator error!

Below - green of 450 yd par-4 very good dogleg right-to-left 16th hole photographed from right front of green. Green has narrow front, how many times have I typed that in this thread, middle section is lower and the rear section both raised and wider. A very good green (and hole).


The 17th is a really strong 430 yd par-4 with a raised green fronted left side by two bunkers and one bunker to the right side and incorporating a raised rear section and very strong run-offs on the left past the bunkers. An easy green to screw up a good score on. Angle of late in the day sun was unhelpful so sorry no photo of the 17th.

Below - looking back up the fairway from behind the green at the 530 yd par-5 18th hole. The hole is a slight left-to-right dogleg and as you see plays downhill. There's a ditch 50 yds short of the long green. As an aside, you often find a bench situated behind the last green at courses in the UK. A place to sit and sign the scorecards. The green hoop is a brush to remove any clinging grass from your golf shoes.


When I was at Walsall the greens were excellent, smooth, fast and true. The fairway grass was a little long. Despite the Dr MacK heritage the conditioning of the bunkers was unfortunately very poor. There was very little sand in them and several had the lips flaking and breaking away. The rough was cut nice and low, in line with Dr MacK's doctrine of no lost balls (?), which is a preference of mine on parkland courses. If your ball did go into the trees it was easy to find the ball and easy to play out again if your were not over ambitious, yee olde half-shot penalty. Again per Dr MacK's doctrine, many of the tees were extremely close to the previous greens.

I shall return to Walsall GC sometime and would encourage all those interested in Dr MacK courses, especially green/bunker complexes, to pop in if you have the opportunity.

All the best.

[Thomas Dai]

Bumped as I've now added the additional photographs plus a few descriptive words.
All the best.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Headed home later this month and will try to play the Littel Aston and Walsall double while home.
I grew up in the Midlands and have never played Walsall, but it looks well worth the effort, thanks for the pictures and descriptions.

[Mat Poade]

Thanks Thomas.

Yes lots of the holes have a narrow entrance often flanked by a bunker or 2.

It's a nice gentle introduction to the round with 2 very reachable par 4's. But it’s very easy to pull a ball OB if going with the driver.
4 is a good par 3 where I witnessed my fried have a hole on one with one of the worst shits I’d seen him hit. Big low hook that nearly broken the pin in half but somehow fell straight down into the hole!
It’s a shame you have no pictures of the 13th. That’s a very tough par 3, surrounded by bunkers and the green must be no more than 15 yards wide in the middle.

I keep meaning to go back for a round, but when I moved to Harborne the thought of driving down that portion of the M6 keeps putting me off. I know I’d want to play around 12 to meet up with the old crowd so that would be driving back in rush hour which is no fun.

Walsall was the first private club I joined after my enforced sabbatical due to Cricket and Football taking all my time. I couldn’t have wished for a friendlier private club and it made me fall back in love with golf.

If anyone wants a round at Harborne anytime please feel free to message me. I even have a couple of days midweek free coming up 16th & 18th Sept (although you'll have to put up with hollowtined greens which is happening the week before).

[Greg Taylor]

Well the first course I ever played was Pype Hayes, I was a member at Sutton Coldfield and lives two minutes from Moor Hall...!

Pype Hayes has been bought by mytime, and they have built a new club after that last one was burnt down in an arson attack... The course is pretty good for a muni, has drainage issues too on the lower part in winter, but worth a game.

Moor Hall: the coniditioning is excellent, and the routing through park land is nice if not exactly challenging. If you want pretty this is the place to be... But I would pick Sutton Coldfield over that and Little Aston to be honest.

Sandwell is good course in the "locale" as is of course Beau.

I've never played Walsall and not heard anything about it, either way, which is unusual.

Mat, I cant make those dates, but would love a game at Harbourne, never played there.

[Mat Poade]

I agree with Thomas, let's try and organise a West Midlands get together. Oct-Nov works for me.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()