[V. Kmetz]

All, Mike, whomever.

What a queer, meaningless and particularly craven vehicle - reactions to Zimmerman in electronic media - to have been foisted upon us here as some example of how "group-think" operates and how majorities and minorities work in human dynamic.  As if that means anything to whether or not "RTJ can get a break" or "no one can deride TOC" without fear of ostracization.

For one thing, as some have noted previously, nothing could be farther from an objective analysis on this site.  Here, it is my observation that the most radical opinions receive quarter and airing...sometimes being shouted down and parrying back is exactly what forms them into amalgamated, dare I say, "mainstream" views over time.  

Christ, whatever meaningful wasn't a radical idea when it was proposed and developed?

To me Mike, this thread was just a Trojan Horse, just a device to interject some parroted political philosophy in the guise of a Board-centric" topic.  

I can't evaluate that you make this offering and your various defenses with specific intent (e.g., you may be so inured and subject to these beliefs, that you no longer delineate).

But even if we went to the brighter side and said, "No, this matters to the enterprise of evaluating and enjoying architecture" and give the benefit of the doubt to good intentions and ignore this "Zimmerman context," how does what you're saying matter?

Is something going to change about the board or about rating systems?
Is there going to be a bar graph next to each thread measuring how well the last post clings or cleaves from a building consensus?  
Are people going to stop chirping back, "How many times have you played it?" when someone goes into complex analysis of a place...

...is any of that going to stop or alter or amend or increase because you have now introduced us to the slippery bank of group-think?

I don't know for sure, but I'll take a chance and say that you believe in a God, maybe even the sunday-school God or the God of the Talamud.  

Well I don't, and I can't think of any more insidious examples of group-think than those offered by:

"In God we trust" on the money...
"...shed his grace on thee" in the song
"so help me God," in court.

So work on THOSE first; explain THOSE as a model for group think...and then hit us with piss-ant Zimmerman on piss-ant FB, like number 12,006 on the charts.

cheers

vk

[John Kavanaugh]

I always would've though Jim Engh would've done the Sharknado of golf courses.

As for courses that undergo significant evolution in the five years after opening, I think of them more as the Chinese Democracy of golf courses, only if Chinese Democracy were released in 1998 and then remixed, rerecorded, and remastered continuously and publicly until the finished product was stamped ten years later. Perhaps Sharknado will undergo a similar evolution. I really enjoyed the film and its campiness, but there's a fine line between campy and just plain awful CGI. I'd love to see them remaster it with better computer animation and more stock footage, but the same fantastic continuity gaps and surrealist sensibility.

Two problems: Engh hasn't built anything 91% fresh and Chinese Democracy was developed under the guise of great expectations from the critics. The critics wanted to hate Dismal River before it was ever grassed.  Collect call for Thomas Dunne...the 80's wants your reviews back.

I don't really know what this means--especially the 1980s reference--but I already suspect I'm better off continuing to add to the spiral of silence.

The 80's reference is due to my opinion that the following style of writing would better serve as fuel for a flux capacitor. http://www.departures.com/articles/extraordinary-nebraska-golf-courses

John, I'm not going to worry too much about what you think of my "style", but I suspect you're more put out by the substance of the feature. I know you've always been a big backer of Dismal Nicklaus, but Spiral of Silence aside, fine, I don't think too highly of it. And if anything, I think Doak's new course only throws the shortcomings of its neighbor into sharper relief. For me, it comes down to site selection and routing before the conversation about golf holes themselves can even begin. I don't find the site of the Nicklaus design to be a particularly compelling place to explore--it felt like tracking aimlessly around a big bowl. I didn't find the routing intuitive, nor do I think it's successful as a walking course. (Whether that was a priority I don't know, but if it wasn't, it should've been.)

Doak's course, on the other hand, is a grand slam in terms of site selection and routing. I give Renaissance and Chris Johnston a lot of credit for electing to cross the road and create holes in the shadow of the buffalo run and at the Dismal River itself. The front nine is superb, but that back nine has a chance to be known as one of the finest sides in American golf. I happen to especially like courses where the routing tells a story of sorts by moving the player (easily) through diverse environments in natural and exciting ways. Is that too airy-fairy? Think Highlands Links, or Bandon Trails.

I believe Dismal has a bright future as a club, and I said as much in my Departures feature. CJ was a welcoming host during my visit and I very much enjoyed playing a round with him over the winter at Streamsong. He frames these differences in a positive light, and if I were in his shoes I'd do exactly the same thing. But as an outsider communicating my impressions to the readers of a (non-golf) magazine, I couldn't honestly say these two courses are in the same class in terms of...pretty much anything. Strategy, artistry, memorability of the journey? I'm sure someone will argue that I haven't played either of them enough (Nicklaus: 1 play; Doak: Walked the 18 during grow-in). I don't claim to know the nuances of the Nicklaus design even 1% as well as any Dismal member, and I always reserve the right to change my mind, but for now I feel comfortable enough with what I saw and wrote.

PS: The great thing about "Back to the Future" is that Biff gets his in the end, every time.

Tom,

Thank you for a fair and entertaining response.  The Nicklaus course is indeed not one I would walk but what 50+ golfer really wants to walk the second 18 anyway?  Perhaps it was a mistake on the original owners part but is now moot with the addition of another very walkable venue.

I would argue that disliking the Nicklaus course because of the routing is as silent as praising the view from Ben's porch.  My objection to your style was more a reflection of the predictability of both your piece and my reaction to it.

When a respected professional writer such as yourself has an unpredictable opinion you are seen as being on the dole.  When a guy like me comes from left field we are accused of being a troll.  The troll culture has been infiltrated by such a large number of amateurs that it's embarrassing to be associated with even if you are being honest.  Trying to win in this environment must be like trying to get paid.  I don't see how anyone does it while keeping their self respect.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I'm not quite sure where to start as I sure don't follow all the different tacks this thread has taken, but it seems to be along the every other month thread type that says in so many words, we all like something because everyone else likes it, or something like that.
First response to that type of thinking is, why does anyone care if people agree with them or not? The whole idea that an idea is only validated if the majority agrees renders that opinion worthless if you ask me.
Second, we always seem to end up with this most favored architect type talk. I think there are probably about as many people making a living being a golf architect as there are QBs making a living in the NFL. If you consider all the stating QBs, back ups, clipboard holders and practice squad guys, there are probably about 100 guys who make a living as a QB. They all are exceptional when compared against the lay football expert and they all know a hell of a lot more about being a NFL QB then anyone here. But there is only a few guys like Brady, Manning(s), or Rogers. TJ Yates is a hell of an athlete and a bona fide NFL QB, but he isn't Aaron Rodgers.
It used to be cool to say you liked Tom Doak's, Bill Coore's, or Gil Hanse's work. But they are known now, not some unknown garage band selling 1000 copies on the net. They are consider the best by many...because they have been proven to be among the best in the business, IMO.
If you are making a living as a GCA, you are the exception and should be proud of what you've done, but that doesn't make you Bill Coore.

[Mike_Young]

VK,
I don't do politics, religion or trojan horses on the web so can't say much about your post.  But I do believe group think greatly influences this site.  I think one way to prove such would be if we were able to discuss golf courses in genres instead of artist format and had no way to know  the architect.   sort of Pandora style....it's hard to do with living architects but two times I have seen architecture dudes explain the brilliant work of Donald Ross to me on a course Ross had never designed or seen.  And both were very good golf courses that the guys probably would have never played if they had not thought they were Ross.  

[Mike_Young]

Don,

I didn't pick up on this being "favored architect thread " when I was thinking of the "spiral of silence".  My theory is that so many subconsciously decide they don't like courses because of the name on them.  Group think has made many guys favor archies instead of courses...and courses are what we play...
P>S>  I think you are high with your 100 number....

[Ian Andrew]

Don,

I may be Antonio Salieri, but I know I'm definitely not Mozart.  
I'm content to be a third tier third rate architect as someone on this site once called me. 


I can assure you that Bill is universally looked up to by "everyone" in the golf design business.


Interestingly, I know the schedules and demands on the three you cite.
I doubt I could manage the responsibilities or time commitments each must make year in and year out to be where they are in the business. It's far more than talent ... their success is a combination of relentless work and talent.

my2C

[Mike_Young]

Don,

I'm content to be a third tier third rate architect as someone on this site once called me. 

Ian,
Come on you can do better than that....

try these:
There is no scorn more profound, or on the whole more justifiable, than that of the men who make for the men who explain. Exposition, criticism, appreciation, is work for second-rate minds.
G. H. Hardy

I used to think that all my Wings stuff was second-rate stuff, but I began to meet younger kids, not kids from my Beatle generation, who would say, We really love this song.
Paul McCartney

The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.
A. A. Milne

 

[V. Kmetz]

Mike,

You might not "do" politics, religion or Trojan horses...but you have tried your own group-think/Spiral of silence experiment in "opinion isolation" right here and with this person in particular...

...or are you forgetting that you reached out to a contact at WF to make them aware of my opinions in reaction to TEP's Part I interview last spring?

In your own words with my BOLD:
"Spiral of silence theory describes the process by which one opinion becomes dominant as those who perceive their opinion to be in the minority do not speak up because society threatens individuals with fear of isolation."

What did you hope to achieve with that, if not my own fear of...isolation? disdain at my job? loss of job?

ahhhh what a load of crap - as we said on the schoolyard in the 70s..."you smelled it, you dealt it"

cheers

vk

[Jim Nugent]

Her impression was that the nation was outraged at the verdict.

I think it split along party/ideological lines.  

She also never believed Mitt Romney had a chance to win the last election

She was completely right...

she thinks the huge majority of the country favors gay marriage

no idea...

and she generally thinks the country is quickly growing more liberal outside of a few stubborn and ignorant pockets.

I think the country is getting more polarized.  

This site is the MSNBC of golf forums.

I hope we're better than that!

[Jim Colton]

.

[JC Jones]

Her impression was that the nation was outraged at the verdict.

I think it split along party/ideological lines.  

The most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site.  

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

You might not "do" politics, religion or Trojan horses...but you have tried your own group-think/Spiral of silence experiment in "opinion isolation" right here and with this person in particular...

...or are you forgetting that you reached out to a contact at WF to make them aware of my opinions in reaction to TEP's Part I interview last spring?

In your own words with my BOLD:
"Spiral of silence theory describes the process by which one opinion becomes dominant as those who perceive their opinion to be in the minority do not speak up because society threatens individuals with fear of isolation."

What did you hope to achieve with that, if not my own fear of...isolation? disdain at my job? loss of job?

ahhhh what a load of crap - as we said on the schoolyard in the 70s..."you smelled it, you dealt it"

cheers

vk

VK,

We just don't see it the same.  
I feel anything we say on the internet is public and I believe strongly in capitalism and the free enterprise system.  And I never worried about the "fear of isolation" idea.  But I do feel the employer has the right to know how employees speak of them.  
Cheers,
Mike

[Joe Hancock]

Here's where the rubber meets the road in this whole discussion. There are a good number of individuals on this site who have a dog in the hunt, so to speak, in regards to what they say here, how they say it, and how it may be used against them in future work decisions, at the very worst.

Why would anyone in the business get on here, ruffle feathers with an alternative viewpoint, only to have it broadcast to others in a negative light? Especially if it goes beyond the realm of this discussion board, where the person may have zero opportunity to defend their viewpoint?

There's probably a handful of participants here who have forged a reputation that makes them somewhat immune to any effects of speaking their mind, but for the rest of us, we need to be carefully metered in our written words. Thus, sometimes...silence. That's not a theory, it's discretion.

Joe

[archie_struthers]

 


One of my all time favorite silences was  Sunday Silence !

[George Pazin]

The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.
A. A. Milne

 

This is the product of a first rate mind. Thanks for sharing, many thanks.

[Jim Nugent]

Her impression was that the nation was outraged at the verdict.

I think it split along party/ideological lines.  

The most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site.  

WaPost-ABC poll found that 62% of Democrats disapproved of the decision, while 20% of Republicans disapproved.  

The same poll found 86% of blacks disapproved, while 31% of whites disapproved.  

Overall the poll found 41% of Americans approve and 41% disapprove, with the rest no opinion.  

[John Kirk]

WaPost-ABC poll found that 62% of Democrats disapproved of the decision, while 20% of Republicans disapproved.  

The same poll found 86% of blacks disapproved, while 31% of whites disapproved.  

Overall the poll found 41% of Americans approve and 41% disapprove, with the rest no opinion.  

...which proves that 41% of the people make judgements based on maudlin sentimentality, rather than critically analyzing the facts.

[Jim_Kennedy]

WaPost-ABC poll found that 62% of Democrats disapproved of the decision, while 20% of Republicans disapproved.  

The same poll found 86% of blacks disapproved, while 31% of whites disapproved.  

Overall the poll found 41% of Americans approve and 41% disapprove, with the rest no opinion.  

...which proves that 41% of the people make judgements based on maudlin sentimentality, rather than critically analyzing the facts.

It 'proves' that 82% of people are willing to make a judgement, right or wrong, and that 18% of people are oblivious.  

[Eric Smith]

I don't find the site of the Nicklaus design to be a particularly compelling place to explore--it felt like tracking aimlessly around a big bowl.

Tom,

I must've said this a hundred times last weekend.

[JC Jones]

Her impression was that the nation was outraged at the verdict.

I think it split along party/ideological lines.  

The most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site.  

WaPost-ABC poll found that 62% of Democrats disapproved of the decision, while 20% of Republicans disapproved.  

The same poll found 86% of blacks disapproved, while 31% of whites disapproved.  

Overall the poll found 41% of Americans approve and 41% disapprove, with the rest no opinion.  

I didn't say it was ridiculous because it wasn't true, I was saying it is ridiculous if true because of the statement it makes about the opinions of the American people.

[Mike Hendren]

I can think of only two gentlemen on this website who have snubbed or insulted me - perhaps they were having a bad day.   Ironically, each is universally lauded on-line as a great guy with nary a negative comment to be found here.   I suspect my experience and resulting opinion of them is secretly shared by others, but no big whup.  Why not remain silent when the stakes are so low.   Down here, rather than call them out, we simply say "bless their hearts."

The spiral of silence theory pales into comparison to sucking up for access as the primary basis for the lack of dissent on this site.  For example, the routine lambasting of Augusta National is largely attributable to its inaccessibility.  

Bogey

[Jim Nugent]

JC, I bet the same is true of most issues, from the economy to foreign policy to the Bill of Rights. 

Syria may be an exception to that, at least for now. 

[John Kirk]

I can think of only two gentlemen on this website who have snubbed or insulted me - perhaps they were having a bad day.   Ironically, each is universally lauded on-line as a great guy with nary a negative comment to be found here.   I suspect my experience and resulting opinion of them is secretly shared by others, but no big whup.  Why not remain silent when the stakes are so low.   Down here, rather than call them out, we simply say "bless their hearts."

The spiral of silence theory pales into comparison to sucking up for access as the primary basis for the lack of dissent on this site.  For example, the routine lambasting of Augusta National is largely attributable to its inaccessibility.  

Bogey

Hi Bogey,

Don't you think the opposite is more common?

That is, negative views of courses are withheld because someone does not want to lose the opportunity to access a course.  I think there are a few places out there which might deny access based on critical commentary.

[Doug Ralston]

Wow!;

I had the impression that Ran had asked us to let up on the political debate. Please let me know it this has changed and I shall gleefully beat some conservatives here vigorously about the head and shoulders [figuratively speaking].  

Doug Eclectic Ralston, your servant

PS: For politics here, the 'spiral' was actually a circle circumscribed by the owner, I thought. And for the GCA, of course there is a careful commentary with cognitive dissonance when as closely bound a group as this talks about the subject so important to them. Humans are both individual and group beings, the only animal that does this so easily. It makes many types of interaction quite 'schizophrenic [again in the figurative sense]. We need acceptance, but also need the liberty of single perspective. This is not bad, it's just 'us'.

End of psychoanalysis.

[Jud_T]

John,

If one feels negatively about a course, why would he care about further access, unless he cared more about bedpost notching and bragging rights than golf enjoyment?  I can understand being sensitive to a member, but there's negative and then there's NEGATIVE...

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