Chicago vs Philly - Who Reigns Supreme?

[JC Jones]

Sven and Peter,

I think you two are taking this discussion significantly more seriously than those who are participating.  This thread, this whole board, is nothing other than an intellectual, often times hypothetical, exercise to pass time between rounds of golf.  Perhaps a better thread would be "what course could you play exclusively the rest of your life and be content."  Maybe we've bad that discussion and maybe it's time to have it again.

But, I wouldn't view this discussion as a bunch of people who are unhappy with what they have, or worse yet, could never be satisfied.  To me it has been a fun exercise in getting to know more about the golf (and food and beer) in both cities.  And if anything, it has shown that the people who live in those places are damn happy with what they have and where they live.

This is meant to be fun discussion, please view it as such.

As to your point about California, I'll just have to disagree.  Give me a 12 pack of Founders All-Day IPA in cans and Kingsley Club from now until I kick the bucket and you'll never find a more satisfied golfer than me

Gratefully yours,

Quad Steak

[mike_malone]

I have not been to Chicago so I can't speak to the golf but I do hope that their courses are better than the courses in Philadelphia because they would be certainly a great place to play golf

[Peter Pallotta]

Now I feel bad, and find myself wishing that I actually HAD taken it too seriously. Sick as it is, I was just trying to bug you...

P

[JC Jones]

Now I feel bad, and find myself wishing that I actually HAD taken it too seriously. Sick as it is, I was just trying to bug you...

P

You'll have to work harder than that to bug me. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Here's the problem.  Golf is best when played on firm, interesting ground.  Chicago, for the most part, has neither.  Played Ravisloe with a couple of buddies yesterday.  Aside from the fact that 8 of the last 11 holes are par 4's between 390 and 410, it's a fun track with some interesting Ross greens.  The wet conditions put a damper on the whole affair.  I'm not nearly the belt-notching snob I used to be but I'm pickier in terms of where/when to play.  Philly at least has some more interesting topography and a couple courses that are actually on sand.

Jud:

You happened to catch the one day in perhaps the last 40 that the turf in the south suburbs wasn't running out.  Up until yesterday morning, the courses in that area were playing beautifully.  I've been down there every day except for 4 this summer, and can attest that the city has had one of the best stretches of weather for golf that I've seen in a long time.  There was a quick storm on Sunday night that must have dropped a ton of rain.  On Monday, balls were plugging in the fairways and there was standing water in the bunkers.  Poor timing for a few clubs in the area that were trying to wrap up their club championship activities.

As you should know, even though many of the courses around here might overwater in an attempt to keep things green, when the weather cooperates and we get a dry summer the turf around here can compare pretty favorably to other U.S. locales.  We'll never have Bandon condidtions, but it's not exactly like we have to play in a bog.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

JC -

I guess I can't help myself.  When a thread has a Chicago top ten ranking that includes Cog Hill and Conway Farms, I have to find something to nitpick.

Throw in Exmoor and OF South and the list (and thus the thread) has a bit more credibility.

Sven

[Josh Tarble]

I can't argue on the strengths and weaknesses of their golf courses, but in my eyes Chicago wins because they have more byob restaurants than anywhere else I've visited.  Selection doesn't matter when you can bring your own.

Have you visited Philly (and PA in general)?  Well, the state controlled Liquor Control Board ("LCB") tightly controls liquor.  The end result is an unbelievable amount of BYO's in Philly and the 'burbs.

I have visited Philly as well as Pittsburgh, but both only briefly and both without the benefit of a local guide....next time I will be sure to look you up so I can get off of the beaten path.

[Eric Smith]

JC,

My analysis of Peter's post is a bit different than yours. I believe what he is basically saying is:

Don't get me wrong, Chi-town got it going on and New York is the city that we know don't sleep and we all know that L.A. and Philly stay jiggy.

Savvy?

[JC Jones]

What is interesting to me is the course that is rarely disputed as the best in Chicago, CGC, is really on flat farmland.  A few scattered natural trees, almost no elevation change or bluffs, no natural sandy areas.

I always am curious as to why this is a go to statement for why Chicago isn't great.  It strikes me as curious for a couple of reasons:

1.  You never hear this brought up when referring to many of the courses in Scotland that are so revered.
2.  It isn't really that flat.  The approach on 1 is uphill, same 2.  3 is downhill, 8 is a blind tee shot, 9 is elevated tee shot, 12 is straight up a hill, 13 plays across the ridge, 14 is an elevated tee shot and the approach at 18 is uphill.

While the property is more rolling than severe, it has more elevation changes through out the course than, say, Shoreacres which only has 8 and 11-13 that use the ridge (and really only 12 down to the floor and the tee shot on 13 back out, 8 and 11 play across some crevices).  

To say that the property is flat, like St. Andrews or Muirfield flat, is just wrong.  

A course does not need to have "bluffs" to be great and this might be the first time I've seen the lack of trees used as a negative.

[JC Jones]

JC -

I guess I can't help myself.  When a thread has a Chicago top ten ranking that includes Cog Hill and Conway Farms, I have to find something to nitpick.

Throw in Exmoor and OF South and the list (and thus the thread) has a bit more credibility.

Sven

I could see that as an issue.  It wasn't meant to be a ranking, in order per se, so much as a listing of the top courses.  I used the Golf Digest and Links Magazine as starting off points.

I'm looking forward to my return trip to Chicago next summer and both of those courses you listed are planned for the itinerary.

[JC Jones]

JC,

My analysis of Peter's post is a bit different than yours. I believe what he is basically saying is:

Don't get me wrong, Chi-town got it going on and New York is the city that we know don't sleep and we all know that L.A. and Philly stay jiggy.

Savvy?

It would have been more convincing had it ended "ya dig?" 

[Joe Hancock]

Now I feel bad, and find myself wishing that I actually HAD taken it too seriously. Sick as it is, I was just trying to bug you...

P

While laughing, I nearly choked on my red beans and rice....

[Tom ORourke]

As someone who lived in the Philly / South Jersey area for 30 years I have to go with Philly. Just look a dozen Philly courses that did not even make the discussion -
Waynesborough (a favorite of mine)
Llanerch
Lehigh
Torresdale - Frankford
Overbrook
Chester Valley
Whitford
Kennett Square
Jericho National
ACE Club
Springhaven
Commonwealth
When you talk about depth these are the guys we have on our bench. I don't know much about the Chicago scene but you can play any 6 or 7 of these clubs and have a great, great day.
And then have a cheesesteak, wit, wit.

[Terry Lavin]

Thread Euthanasia may be required at this point, unless someone wants to get into rapid transit.

[Carl Nichols]

Thread Euthanasia may be required at this point, unless someone wants to get into rapid transit.

Or sports fans.  Actually, that one is easy. 

[Peter Pallotta]

JC,

My analysis of Peter's post is a bit different than yours. I believe what he is basically saying is:

Don't get me wrong, Chi-town got it going on and New York is the city that we know don't sleep and we all know that L.A. and Philly stay jiggy.

Savvy?

It would have been more convincing had it ended "ya dig?" 

Thanks for the laugh, gents -- and yes, Eric, "savvy" was the perfect touch. (Sorry for mucking up the thread, Quad.)

Joe - ha! It makes it all worth it!

Terry - Sadly, I think you just gave one of us geeks a new thread idea. "Top Ten Par 70 Courses -- Classic and Modern, Under 6850 Yards From the Blues -- accessible on Sundays, for Mixed Foursomes, by either traditional train lines and/or by some combination of light rapid transit".

[Eric Smith]

PP,

Thanks - and I'm glad you recognized that. JC's still a bit rusty but we'll whip him into shape soon enough!

[Brian Colbert]

Having lived in Chicago for over half my life and having played college golf in Philadelphia, this is a topic that I have pondered extensively. Here's where I have arrived. Chicago is a superior golf city. It's not because of Chicago Golf Club or Butler National or Olympia Fields or Merion or Pine Valley, but it's because of the incredible quality of the public options in the area. Philadelphia has many great golf courses; nobody can argue that. But how many could someone with no affiliation to any club walk out and play? How many have we mentioned on this thread which any Philadelphian can call and make a tee time at tomorrow?

I am fortunate enough to hold memberships at clubs we have mentioned in this thread in both cities and could probably play the majority of these courses we have mentioned with moderate effort. But what of the average golfing population who loves architecture but due to any number of constraints (cost and cost effectiveness, to name a couple) is unable to justify joining an elite club? Check out this lineup:

Cog Hill Dubsdread
Pine Meadow
Shepherd's Crook
Ravisloe
Harborside P & S
The Glen Club
Thunderhawk
Cantigny
George W. Dunne

Or if you're after quality courses at a good value

Shepherd's Crook (again)
Foxford Hills
Oak Grove
Winnetka
Wilmette
etc.

How many publics in Philadelphia would belong on these lists? Perhaps someone a la Joe Bausch can answer

[Terry Lavin]

Having lived in Chicago for over half my life and having played college golf in Philadelphia, this is a topic that I have pondered extensively. Here's where I have arrived. Chicago is a superior golf city. It's not because of Chicago Golf Club or Butler National or Olympia Fields or Merion or Pine Valley, but it's because of the incredible quality of the public options in the area. Philadelphia has many great golf courses; nobody can argue that. But how many could someone with no affiliation to any club walk out and play? How many have we mentioned on this thread which any Philadelphian can call and make a tee time at tomorrow?

I am fortunate enough to hold memberships at clubs we have mentioned in this thread in both cities and could probably play the majority of these courses we have mentioned with moderate effort. But what of the average golfing population who loves architecture but due to any number of constraints (cost and cost effectiveness, to name a couple) is unable to justify joining an elite club? Check out this lineup:

Cog Hill Dubsdread
Pine Meadow
Shepherd's Crook
Ravisloe
Harborside P & S
The Glen Club
Thunderhawk
Cantigny
George W. Dunne

Or if you're after quality courses at a good value

Shepherd's Crook (again)
Foxford Hills
Oak Grove
Winnetka
Wilmette
etc.

How many publics in Philadelphia would belong on these lists? Perhaps someone a la Joe Bausch can answer

I don't know the answer to that question but precious few of these Chicago courses you mention are worth a replay. Public golf here in Chicago is pretty abysmal. Cog is good Rav is average Glen is semi private and good. The rest are avoidable.

[JC Jones]

Brian,

Congrats on being the first on this thread to disagree with Tom Doak.  Even Lavin can't rep his own city.  

[J_ Crisham]

Philly is indeed very good and quite deep but then again so is Chicago. I've played just about everything in Philly other than PV-admittedly a big omission. In Chicago I've played everything multiple times. My view is that Chicago Golf has the best greens in either city that I've played. They are very ,very good. I don't see a discernible difference between CGC and Merion. Both are equally outstanding courses. I think OFCC North is better than Aronimink but not by much. Beverly is at the same level as HVGC, Philly CC, or Gulph Mills. Shoreacres is better than Rolling Green. Other than PV, nothing in Philly compares to Butler or Medinah 3 in difficulty . Skokie would compare favorably to Lancaster, which I believe is the 4th best course in eastern PA. The second tier of course in Chicago is also really good- Flossmoor, OFCC South, Old Elm, Exmoor, Bob O Link, Black Sheep, Edgewood Valley, Briarwood, The Dunes Club, Lost Dunes, Point O Woods, Elgin CC, North Shore, Barrington Hills, Butterfield, and Kemper Lakes. Until I play Pine Valley, I have the Philly and Chicago in a dead heat.

[JC Jones]

Awesome.  Thanks for your input.

And I agree, I love Merion and CGC but for different reasons.  If talking greens alone, I too give the nod to CGC though I wish they maintained the Biarritz as a true Biarritz.  Judging from an old aerial though, it doesn't look like they ever have.

[Jud_T]

Damn.  Lost Dunes is in Chicago?  Maybe there is a club in town that I actually want to join that would have me after all.  Of course there's still the pesky maintenance issue...We all know Chicago has phenomenal depth of Doak 4's and 5's (6's with the homer grade inflation).  I didn't think that was really the criteria for the comparison.  Hell, Myrtle takes Chicago on depth in a walk.

[J_ Crisham]

Damn.  Lost Dunes is in Chicago?  Maybe there is a club in town that I actually want to join that would have me after all.  Of course there's still the pesky maintenance issue...We all know Chicago has phenomenal depth of Doak 4's and 5's (6's with the homer grade inflation).  I didn't think that was really the criteria for the comparison.  Hell, Myrtle takes Chicago on depth in a walk.

Jud,     Correct, Lost Dunes, Dunes Club, Point O Woods are all Chicago area clubs- only 1 hr from south suburbs- as close as Lancaster or Stonewall from downtown Philly. They are all CDGA participant clubs- they obviously consider themselves part of the team- as you may or may not know, most if not all of their members are also Chicago guys- ie 2nd clubs.
      Pesky maintenance issues? I spent a weekend at Lost Dunes in early June- Course was in great shape then- has something changed?
As far as Doak 4's and 5's- from experience I can say that Chicago has several 6's and a few 7's with 2 certain 8's, CGC and Shoreacres. Where have you played in Philly? Compare and contrast courses by quality - that was the only criteria mentioned by JC Jones on the original post.

[Jud_T]

Jack,

I didn't say Philly was better as I haven't played much of anything there.  I said I'd be shocked if Chicago were #2 in the other thread.  As for Lost Dunes my understanding is that the course isn't generally maintained as F&F as it was designed to be played, with jibes with my few experiences there.