Chicago vs Philly - Who Reigns Supreme?

[JC Jones]

I figured I would start a new thread so we could compare/contrast these two great golfing cities.  We aren't talking about their golf associations, city tournaments, etc.  We are just talking quality of golf courses.  I'll list, arguably the top 10 from each and we can go from there.

Chicago

Chicago Golf Club
Shoreacres
Skokie
Medinah #3
Olympia Fields North
Butler National
Beverly CC
Cog Hill Dubsdread
Conway Farms
North Shore CC

Other possible entries: Exmoor, Bob O'Link, Flossmoor, Onwentsia, Olympia Fields South, Black Sheep, Medinah #1 (post-Doak)

Philly

Pine Valley
Merion
Aronimink
Huntingdon Valley
Rolling Green
Philly Country Club
Stonewall Old
Manufacturers
Whitemarsh Valley
Philly Cricket Club - Wissahickon (post-reno)

Other possible entries: Gulph Mills, Stonewall New
Geographical possibilities: Lehigh, Saucon Valley

[JC Jones]

My personal take is that after the top 2, Chicago's depth takes over. 

[JESII]

I haven't played any of the Chicago courses so can't comment that way, but I'd realign the Philly courses to...

PVC
Merion
Aronimink
HVCC and Rolling Green interchangeable
Saucon Valley old - only 45 minutes from center city so no geographical issue to me
Philly Cricket Wissahickon
Stonewall Old
Philly Country
Gulph Mills

If your bottom 8 beat that bottom 8 I'll be impressed/amazed.

[Tom_Doak]

My personal take is that after the top 2, Chicago's depth takes over. 

How many of the Philadelphia courses have you played, before that personal take?

I think Philadelphia wins based on depth, not just the top two.

[JC Jones]

Way to kill the thread, Tom   Do you think anyone is going to come in and disagree with you?  Even though you have east coast bias!

Firstly, I've admittedly played more of the Chicago top 10 than the Philly top 10 but will rectify that in October, which I said in the other thread but should have also put it in this thread.  I dont want to make this about the rankings but Chicago would win on the rankings side, which is maybe why Links magazine went there.

Part of my rationale comes from having played a course from each city, probably similarly situated in each city's rankings and feeling like the Chicago course was significantly better than the Philly course.

Besides the top 2, which Philly courses should I play to be able to fully understand Philly's depth?

[JC Jones]

I haven't played any of the Chicago courses so can't comment that way, but I'd realign the Philly courses to...

PVC
Merion
Aronimink
HVCC and Rolling Green interchangeable
Saucon Valley old - only 45 minutes from center city so no geographical issue to me
Philly Cricket Wissahickon
Stonewall Old
Philly Country
Gulph Mills

If your bottom 8 beat that bottom 8 I'll be impressed/amazed.

Thanks for your help on the realignment.  I struggled to come up with the Philly top 10 but was able to do Chicago off the top of my head.  I think from a bottom 8 perspective, you could argue that these 8 would stack up:

Shoreacres
Olympia Fields North
Butler National
Skokie
Beverly CC
Conway
North Shore CC
Cog Hill Dubsdread

[Joe Bausch]

Sure seems like a golfer living in or near either city should be quite thankful.

[Jim Nugent]

JC, PVC and Merion are light years beyond Chicago's best.  For Chicago to match up with Philadelphia, its bottom eight have to greatly surpass Phillie's.  

[JC Jones]

Jim,

That is an interesting perspective and I hadn't looked at it like that.  I think Merion is better than CGC and the consensus seems to be that PV is better than Merion so that would put CGC 3rd in the rankings.  

Of the next 7 spots in the ranking of 1-10, how many do you think go to Philly and how many do you think go to Chicago?

[BCrosby]

Having played most of the top courses and a number of those farther down on both lists, Philly wins easily.

Bob

[JC Jones]

Having played most of the top courses and a number of those farther down on both lists, Philly wins easily.

Bob

Why?  I found Beverly to be better than Manufacturers and they are similarly situated on each list.

[Tom_Doak]

Besides the top 2, which Philly courses should I play to be able to fully understand Philly's depth?

Philadelphia Country Club (Spring Mill).  If it's only the 9th best course in Philadelphia, then Philadelphia must be pretty strong.

Then again, you didn't like Manufacturers so much, which I do.

To me, once you get past Chicago Golf and Shoreacres, everything else in Chicago seems pretty much the same.  But I suppose you could say that about Philadelphia as well, insofar as so many of the bottom half of the top ten are Flynn courses, all of them good in very similar ways.

[Dan Herrmann]

There are a number of Philly-area courses that would be top 3 in other cities, but are hardly ever considered here.

No doubt that Chicago is a great golf town, but its courses don't stand up to Philly.  Why - we have better land for golf.

[JC Jones]

Besides the top 2, which Philly courses should I play to be able to fully understand Philly's depth?

Philadelphia Country Club (Spring Mill).  If it's only the 9th best course in Philadelphia, then Philadelphia must be pretty strong.

Then again, you didn't like Manufacturers so much, which I do.

To me, once you get past Chicago Golf and Shoreacres, everything else in Chicago seems pretty much the same.  But I suppose you could say that about Philadelphia as well, insofar as so many of the bottom half of the top ten are Flynn courses, all of them good in very similar ways.

Tom,

I really like Manufacturers.  Please don't interpret my enjoyment of Beverly as a negative to Manufacturers.  There are some great holes, especially par 3s at Mannies. 

I will try to check out Philly Country Club when I go.

[Terry Lavin]

Prof. Jones,

Conway needs to be excised from your list. Rather pedestrian layout. As for the main question, Philly would appear to be the clear winner. Chicago has great depth, but not nearly at the same caliber as Philadelphia.

[Joe Hancock]

JC,

Here's a perspective that hasn't included any rounds in either region.....so I've already invalidated anything I could possibly weigh in on, right?

I have walked Medinah, Shoreacres, Old Elm, Merion and Rolling Green. Purely from the perspective of natural terrain that these two geographical areas occupy, I prefer the Philly area. Not that Chicago doesn't have some elevation or other interest in the terrain, but what I see in the Philly area is more rugged and diverse. I personally like that kind of land. Having said that, I think each area has golf courses that have been excellently designed for the land upon which they sit.

If I had to make a choice of taking one area over the other for a 10 round golf junket, playing the "best" that each area offers, I'm going to Philly.

Hope this screws you up,

Joe

[JC Jones]

Prof. Jones,

Conway needs to be excised from your list. Rather pedestrian layout. As for the main question, Philly would appear to be the clear winner. Chicago has great depth, but not nearly at the same caliber as Philadelphia.

I included it based on its ranking in Golf Digest.  What about Old Elm?

My point is depth.  

[Jim Nugent]

Jim,

That is an interesting perspective and I hadn't looked at it like that.  I think Merion is better than CGC and the consensus seems to be that PV is better than Merion so that would put CGC 3rd in the rankings.  

Of the next 7 spots in the ranking of 1-10, how many do you think go to Philly and how many do you think go to Chicago?

I don't know the courses enough to answer.  

Are you going to do the same exercise with New York?  

[Kevin_D]

If Stonewall Old is #8 in Philly, Chicago is in trouble

[JC Jones]

Jim,

That is an interesting perspective and I hadn't looked at it like that.  I think Merion is better than CGC and the consensus seems to be that PV is better than Merion so that would put CGC 3rd in the rankings.  

Of the next 7 spots in the ranking of 1-10, how many do you think go to Philly and how many do you think go to Chicago?

I don't know the courses enough to answer.  

Are you going to do the same exercise with New York?  

I haven't played anything in New York whereas I've played a sampling in Philly to get an idea of the land, etc.

That being said, an interesting question arises if you remove LI from NYC whether the "best course" shifts to Chicago.

[JC Jones]

If Stonewall Old is #8 in Philly, Chicago is in trouble

Why? 

[Kevin_D]

If Stonewall Old is #8 in Philly, Chicago is in trouble

Why? 

Because it's a fantastic golf course!

Granted, I am biased and have not played any of the Chicago courses (hoping to rectify that next year).  But I would be surprised if the back half of the Chicago top 10 are as good as Stonewall.

But I predict that Stonewall - both Old and North - may get a little more attention following the 2016 mid am

[JC Jones]

Kevin,

If I have 2.5 days in Philly, would you recommend 36 at Stonewall or just the old?

[Phil McDade]

Prof. Jones,

Conway needs to be excised from your list. Rather pedestrian layout. As for the main question, Philly would appear to be the clear winner. Chicago has great depth, but not nearly at the same caliber as Philadelphia.

I included it based on its ranking in Golf Digest.  What about Old Elm?

My point is depth.  

Old Elm probably gets knocked down a notch (or several) based on the toughness factor.

But -- those who have played it say it's one of the greatest "days" someone can have visiting a course. The place is said to exude old-school golf and charm, if not a terribly difficult challenge (in the way that I think a Beverly or Flossmoor are legitimately challenging in many ways).

Put it this way -- if you gave me 5 courses to play in Chicago, just for the pure enjoyment of a round, I'd put Old Elm on the list.

[Kevin_D]

Kevin,

If I have 2.5 days in Philly, would you recommend 36 at Stonewall or just the old?

Hmm.  I'm not sure I am qualified to answer that question.  Despite growing up in Philly, I have not played most of the outstanding courses there.

I can say this: I think the North Course is highly underrated.  I'm not sure why, but suspect it is because it is used as the "cart course" at the club, since the Old course is walking only (of course, you can walk and take caddies at the North course as well).  It is also unique and distinct from the Old course.  Holes 14-17 in particular are simply outstanding, though the whole course is filled with terrific - and fun! - golf holes.

So I would definitely recommend both the Old and North.  I just don't know how to compare it to Aronimink, Rolling Green, Huntington Valley, or Manufacturers (or Lancaster).

I can say that I think both the Old and North Courses are at least on par with Philly CC, which I like very much.