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Eric Smith

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Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2013, 08:44:46 AM »
Different but the same? What's the over/under on the # of Mike Keiser owned courses in the GOLF Top 100 in 25 years?

David Harshbarger

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Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2013, 09:09:51 AM »
Different but the same? What's the over/under on the # of Mike Keiser owned courses in the GOLF Top 100 in 25 years?

4


But, to keep building versions of the same holes over and over again, as Raynor did, is not my idea of creativity.


This is a great point.  Although one of my top 2 favorite courses I've played is a Mac/Raynor, I still struggle with the idea of repeating templates regardless of the site.


MacDonald and Raynor built a great brand selling the World's best holes to wealthy elites.  They were top shelf, but their brand wasn't "creativity" per se.  Their creativity was in delivering the quality of course on diverse sites while maintaining the World's Best Holes brand, which is why there are so many well regarded MacRaynor courses.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2013, 11:11:24 AM »
There is really no need to try to analyze my feelings on things when you can just ask me.

I've built thirty courses and exactly one of them is a Macdonald tribute.  So that makes it sanctimonious to say that I'm getting tired of the old templates?  I don't mind when designers use them on occasion ... in fact, I was just working on a Redan hole in China today, since I don't think they have one here yet Wink   But, to keep building versions of the same holes over and over again, as Raynor did, is not my idea of creativity.

That said, my comment was not aimed at Seth Raynor (who really doesn't care what I think, since he's dead) or at other architects ... it was directed at the lazy panelists who lap up more of the same old templates, instead of broadening their horizons a little bit.  Would a food critic keep going to more and more branches of a good chain restaurant and rate them all among the best in a city?  

There are a heck of a lot of good golf courses out there, by a lot of different architects.  The variety of great golf is unlimited; I wish more people were able to appreciate more of it.  When people are too fond of the familiar, I fear it's really because they can't understand anything on its own merits.


Thanks for taking the time to write that, Tom.  I, for one, agree with many of those sentiments.  In regards to your comment,  "I wish more people were able to appreciate more if it (the variety of great golf)", could you put some more meat on that thought?  

Do you mean that you wished more people who are able to play these diversely great courses, don't readily appreciate their greatness?

Or do you mean most people don't have the ability (time, money, access) to see these diversely great courses?

Again, thanks.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 11:13:39 AM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2013, 11:23:16 AM »
What's the over/under on the # of Mike Keiser owned courses in the GOLF Top 100 in 25 years?

4
 

My answer:  8

Pac Dunes
Old Mac
Barnbougle
Lost Farm
Cabot Links
Cabot Cliff
+ 2 more that will emerge in the future

btw, I bet Doak has ten top 100 by then.  
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 02:15:47 PM by Jim Nugent »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2013, 02:22:43 PM »
JC,

Once again I am compelled to correct a "damn with faint praise" critic of Raynor who say he "imposed" templates on the land. That is an ill-informed slight, as if Raynor did not spend a great deal of time and effort determining where the template FEATURES would work best with the land he was given. "Imposed" is a weasel word that critics of Raynor frequently use. I know, I've had this discussion with Wayne Morrison and others for 10 years... Raynor was superb router. His courses are almost always quite easy to walk. His courses are so much fun to play, and they are dearly loved by members, guests, and pros. Take a hole like the par 5 #18 at Fox Chapel and the fantastic use of a diagonal creek that bisects the second shot landing area. It a really cool hole but not close to being a template.



ALL golf course architects "impose" golf holes on the land! That will happen when you build putting surfaces, dig bunkers, and plant grass for golf...

Here is Raynor's Eden hole at Fox Chapel, a template. Does this hole look to be "forced upon the land? (The green had just been sanded when I took this photo.)



Raynor was not hired to be creative. He was hired to build a great golf course in a city where his course would immediately be recognized as one of the best in the area. And he delivered time and again. I guess if all the critics can say is he was not creative, that implies that the golf holes are pretty damn good.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 03:09:54 PM by Bill Brightly »

Joe Hancock

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Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2013, 04:08:38 PM »
Bill,

The picture of the Eden at Fox Chapel is interesting. I have not been there, played that......

I wonder if the water was present since day 1. It has no bearing on how the hole is played, but it looks nice.

The green looks like it was formed as if one cupped their really big hands, squished the dirt in between them and packed it down. It's hard to know without seeing the surrounding areas in person.

It looks like it presents a real challenge, and I suppose that is what it is intended to do. I would love to play that hole.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2013, 05:28:08 PM »
I don't know when the irrigation pond was built. But the green is AWESOME. Great back-to-front pitch, and a slight spine that tends to split the green left and right. During my one and only play there three weeks ago, I thought I hit a perfectly safe 5 iron to the dead middle of the green. But I was left of the "spine" that would have fed the ball to the right. I was pin high, 20 feet away, but had to putt almost 90 degrees away from the hole, aimed at the backside of the green, and then let it feed down to the hole. Tried it twice but could not get inside 10 feet!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2013, 06:23:07 PM »
In regards to your comment,  "I wish more people were able to appreciate more if it (the variety of great golf)", could you put some more meat on that thought?  

Do you mean that you wished more people who are able to play these diversely great courses, don't readily appreciate their greatness?

Or do you mean most people don't have the ability (time, money, access) to see these diversely great courses?

I mean I wish more panelist types were open minded to appreciating new styles and new designs and new grass types and new settings.  Way too many of them have come to feel that "the best architecture is whatever I like best," so they keep wanting more of certain designers and certain styles, and aren't very open-minded when they see others.

I'm not saying they should be indiscriminate in their tastes; there are always going to be some styles that don't appeal to a person.  But settling on just a couple is absurd.  Even the person who loves links golf has to be open to other things.

A great example for me from last year was seeing the Himalayan Golf Club.  There were so many things about that course that I would have told you going in I wouldn't do, or couldn't be done well.  There are only 16 holes, so you have to play the first two holes at the start and end of the round, and they are the two most boring holes.  The fairway corridors are pretty narrow, and the fairways are zoysia grass at maybe 7/8 of an inch in height ... but those two factors combined perfectly, as the ball tended to stay in play even in spots where the ground was firm, and the ball sat up enough on the zoysia that you could put the club on it successfully.  The greens were tiny, despite the huge scale of the place, but the ball didn't take a big bounce when it landed, so that was appropriate.  You have to climb 200 feet out of the canyon from 15 green to 16 tee ... and yet the Himalayan Golf Club might be the #1 coolest walk in the history of golf (and your caddie is from a country full of sherpas!).

I could find plenty of panelists that just hated that course.  The fairways were long!  The greens are slow!  The first two holes are awful!  There are hardly any bunkers, much less sexy ones!  It is unlikely to make a top 100 list, because panelists' minds are closed, and yet it is one of the coolest golf courses on earth, and any golf course architect would have to marvel at the accomplishment.

That's an extreme example, but there are many subtler forms.  If you're going to give a pass to 6400-yard Raynor courses, there are maybe 30 great Donald Ross courses that have been ignored for years because they weren't long enough to contend under GOLF DIGEST's definition of "great".

Finally, there is an unwritten "glass ceiling" as to how many courses any of us can have in the top 100, if there's going to be room for others.  It's just human nature ... when somebody thinks about whether my latest course ought to be in the rankings, they compare it to my other courses and where they fall in the rankings, instead of comparing it to someone else's work.  It's not right, but I know that's how people think about it.  Somehow Raynor has gotten over being Macdonald's partner and gotten a quota of his own, even though his work and Macdonald's are almost indistinguishable, and most of their best courses (except Fishers) are the ones that Macdonald had a hand in.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2013, 07:53:43 PM »

I could find plenty of panelists that just hated that course.  The fairways were long!  The greens are slow!  The first two holes are awful!  There are hardly any bunkers, much less sexy ones!  It is unlikely to make a top 100 list, because panelists' minds are closed, and yet it is one of the coolest golf courses on earth, and any golf course architect would have to marvel at the accomplishment.


Tom, I agree that the Himalayan Course looks incredibly cool.
http://www.himalayangolfcourse.com/

But would you rank it as one of the Best 100 courses in the world, or simply one of the top 100 Coolest courses in the world?




There are a couple of other factors that keep some ODG courses in top 100 lists. First of all, many of the ODG courses are very exclusive clubs with very high maintenance budgets so the courses are in impeccable shape. Raters like that. Secondly, many of these courses are extremely hard to access. (Cypress, Augusta, Fishers and Chicago, for example.) So when golfers finally play the course there is almost a self-fulfilling prophesy: this course was so hard to get on, it must be great. I'm not saying these factors should be part of rating, but human nature tells us that they are.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2013, 08:45:36 PM »
Do those four courses actually allow raters to play?   Cypress, Augusta, Fishers and Chicago?   I guess so if they want to keep their lofty rankings!

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2013, 08:52:00 PM »
Do those four courses actually allow raters to play?   Cypress, Augusta, Fishers and Chicago?   I guess so if they want to keep their lofty rankings!

Bill- I think guys that are on the panels get on not as announced raters but as guests or whatever other whoring methods are available. ;)

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2013, 09:23:19 PM »
Bill,

Great post and great points.  I think what excited me the most this summer was seeing two MacRaynor courses that didn't seem to impose at all on the land but were routed perfectly across the properties, particularly Shoreacres.

But then I see Yale and I get a different story.  

I have only played 3 of these courses and admittedly need to see more because, despite what I saw this summer, my prejudice is one of imposition.

Fox Chapel was the course I came away from this summer really wanting to play and you are fueling that fire.

Thanks
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2013, 03:38:32 AM »
As to bringing something new to the table, when, where and by who was the first course built through a lava field (not an active one!!)? Was it in Hawaii or somewhere else?
All the best.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2013, 03:57:50 AM »
Tom

Doesn't a "quota" on the number of courses an archie can have on the list promote variety - at least most of the time?  To your larger point about non-acceptance from raters, jeepers, I may live in the country with the most variety and quality of "lesser" courses on the planet.  I am often perplexed by the choices made by raters in that the same sorts of courses are seen again and again (see US championship parkland courses) on lists, but thats life in the big city.  

I think by far the biggest problem with a top 100 for the world and US is that there are more than 100 courses which belong.  The second problem is most raters think they can spy out a course in one go or on a weekend trip.  That maybe the case for some courses, but when we talk about the unusual or subtle courses then that process doesn't work. It isn't part of rating dna to pay attention to detail.  Most raters have to see detail in action with a ball in play...and with one go...well we know what can be missed and I am as guilty as anybody. The net effect of few plays is the importance of the wow factor is multiplied by X depending on how savvy the rater is.

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2013, 07:28:00 AM »
Tom, I agree that the Himalayan Course looks incredibly cool.
http://www.himalayangolfcourse.com/

But would you rank it as one of the Best 100 courses in the world, or simply one of the top 100 Coolest courses in the world?


Are you starting another list?   :P

All I am saying is it's one of the most thought-provoking courses I've ever seen.  So was Tobacco Road.  So was Woking, which never makes top-100 lists, either.

I am starting to think the correct answer to your question is, who cares?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2013, 07:31:36 AM »
Tom, I agree that the Himalayan Course looks incredibly cool.
http://www.himalayangolfcourse.com/

But would you rank it as one of the Best 100 courses in the world, or simply one of the top 100 Coolest courses in the world?


Are you starting another list?   :P

All I am saying is it's one of the most thought-provoking courses I've ever seen.  So was Tobacco Road.  So was Woking, which never makes top-100 lists, either.


Woking made ours!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2013, 09:58:00 AM »
Hmmm...

Woking seems to come up quite a bit in threads of this nature.  I'm not the sharpest bulb in the toolbox, but I've finally taken the hint.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2013, 10:11:03 AM »
I am starting to think the correct answer to your question is, who cares?

Tom Doak...

Again, I hear the sentiment behind those words and I'm am leaning towards that camp.  But let me offer this...

I don't think it matters whether Crystal Downs is 8th best U.S. Course or 6th or 10th.  It is one of the finest pieces of golf course architecture in the country (world).  Any of these placements in the rankings recognizes this.  Quibbling over precise placements is not overly important to me.

However, I think it does matter, and we should care, that certain courses get recognized.  You mention the Himalayas course.  Prior to your post on this awhile ago, I had really no idea the interest this course brought to the table.  I've been pounding the table for awhile that Rivermont deserves recognition, as it can show that an affordable golf club can bring very interesting golf to members at a reasonable price.  Given this and the very high quality of the course, it needs some sort of recognition.  

I believe there are others courses that are getting overlooked that shouldn't, and I feel that we should care that these courses have, at a minimum, robust discussion.

Thoughts?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2013, 10:16:25 AM »
Hmmm...

Woking seems to come up quite a bit in threads of this nature.  I'm not the sharpest bulb in the toolbox, but I've finally taken the hint.

Mac

Woking is not the sort of course that is picked out of a crowd even as small as the three Ws if greens are not of a high concern.  Tee to green, while good, Woking isn't a world beater.  Think of a place like Mid-Pines with better greens and that is what Woking is like; very pleasant with the odd demanding shot just to keep folks honest.  Yet somehow, everything comes together very well at Woking to create what I think is a fabulous package.  Its my favourite London heathland by quite some margin and I do think its in the same class as any other highly praised heathland except for Sunny Old.    

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2013, 11:41:32 AM »
Agreed about Woking. Not just a delightful course, but one of special historical significance.

Regarding the Raynor rating thing, I am reminded of the Pet Dye interview here at GCA. Ran asked him what he liked most about Raynor's designs. Pete's answer - "Variety". I would love to have seen Pete's face when he gave his answer.

Bob  
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 12:13:18 PM by BCrosby »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2013, 02:53:33 PM »
Bill,

The picture of the Eden at Fox Chapel is interesting. I have not been there, played that......

I wonder if the water was present since day 1.

It has no bearing on how the hole is played, but it looks nice.

Joe, are you stating that divers will not find a single golf ball at the bottom of that pond/lake ?
I'll take the "over" on that bet, and I'm willing to give you significant odds.

The water is intimidating.

How quicky you forget CBM's comments when he found his "Eden" at NGLA ;D


The green looks like it was formed as if one cupped their really big hands, squished the dirt in between them and packed it down. It's hard to know without seeing the surrounding areas in person.

It looks like it presents a real challenge, and I suppose that is what it is intended to do. I would love to play that hole.

Ditto


Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2013, 07:41:00 PM »
Tom, I agree that the Himalayan Course looks incredibly cool.
http://www.himalayangolfcourse.com/

But would you rank it as one of the Best 100 courses in the world, or simply one of the top 100 Coolest courses in the world?


Are you starting another list?   :P

All I am saying is it's one of the most thought-provoking courses I've ever seen.  So was Tobacco Road.  So was Woking, which never makes top-100 lists, either.

I am starting to think the correct answer to your question is, who cares?

Fair enough. No, I am not starting another list! I agree that too much time and money is spent worrying about top 100 lists. But I trust that the Himalayan Club will get a Doak rating and be included in your updated version of The Confidential Guide!

Any idea when the revised version might be available?

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2013, 09:53:04 PM »

I believe there are others courses that are getting overlooked that shouldn't, and I feel that we should care that these courses have, at a minimum, robust discussion.

Thoughts?

That's why people come on Golfclubatlas.com - I still trust the discourse on this website over any system of rankings - and I know accusations of group think are thrown around and maybe there is an element of that, but where else is a course like Rivermont going to get its due? Realistically, I can't see it happening in the magazine rankings. Although I sense it's more likely to be recognised in Golfweek because I get the impression there are more Golfweek guys than the other magazines on this site absorbing info on courses like these and design in general.

I agree with the thrust of your opening post (and I would add another category of courses - classic courses that have held multiple major championships, many of which, let's face it, don't cut it anymore in light of some of the really amazing moderns which have been produced in the last 20 years) - but I agree with whoever responded that as soon as you try to artificially introduce diversity into a set of rankings for diversity's sake (i.e. along regional lines, perhaps like Oitavos dunes in Portugal in the GW list?), things get shakey...

Yes.  Agreed.  I think you touched on the fine line, Brian.  

as soon as you try to artificially introduce diversity into a set of rankings for diversity's sake, things get shakey...

To simply include a course because it is a specific region, from a certain architect, represents a certain stlye, devalues the entire list.  But also excluding something because it doesn't fit into someone's predisposed paradigm, hurts too.  Seems like a fine line.  
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2013, 09:53:45 PM »

I mean I wish more panelist types were open minded to appreciating new styles and new designs and new grass types and new settings.  Way too many of them have come to feel that "the best architecture is whatever I like best," so they keep wanting more of certain designers and certain styles, and aren't very open-minded when they see others.


Tom,

I think one of the dilemmas in the rating process is "predisposition"

It's not like the rater is taking a blind taste test.

They already know the results of hundreds of previous assessments before they set foot on the property.

So, who has the nerve to put forth a contrarian or divergent view ?

And, in terms of moving the needle, how many contrarian or divergent views would it take ?

I've never been a fan of a numerical rating table.
In reality, what seperates number 99 from number 100 or 101 or 120 for that matter.
It's all so subjective.

And, a course that one person may like because it fits his eye, may be distasteful to another whose eye doesn't fancy what rater # 1 sees.

I recently played some courses that were incredibly different from one another.
One of which I didn't understand why anyone would join, yet, they have a robust membership, so obviously, the tastes of those that joined differ from mine.

Other courses that I loved, were scrambling for members.

While there are many factors that determine if someone will join a course, for me, it's always been about the quality of the golf course, and by quality, I don't mean difficulty.

As much as I like Winged Foot West, I don't think that I'd want to play it every day.  I think it would wear me down.
Whereas, I could play a number of lesser tests, and enjoy myself playing every day.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bringing something new to the table
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2013, 09:59:47 PM »
who has the nerve to put forth a contrarian or divergent view ?

I think a lot of people do, Pat.  However, it can be tricky.  Especially is regards to some of the Top 100 lists.  Golf Digest, for example, excludes outliers in their calculation of rankings.  This not only discourages people from having diverse opinions, but it also mathematically eliminates their input from the lists.

This is why, in my opinion, well thought of discussions, rather than lists, might be the first step in shedding light on unique courses and holes.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.