[Thomas Dai]

Guys,
Firm and fast helps the higher handicap because his biggest impediment is distance.  I hit the ball 220 max in really soft conditions and 250+ in proper F&F.  This is by far the biggest difference to me.  Maybe my short game is better than average for my hdcp level, but isn't distance the biggest determining factor in course handicapping criteria?

Go along with Jud here except to add that long-game wise it's probably the shorter hitter rather than the higher handicapper who is most likely helped the most by F&F. Shorter hitters generally tend to be straight-ish hitters so their shots land on the fairways and roll and roll and roll when it's F&F. Higher handicappers, male ones that is, are often higher hcps not because they're short hitters but because their wild and wild when combined with bouncy, running F&F tends to be lost ball and re-load golf.
All the best.

[Adam Clayman]

Higher than an 18 capper really shouldn't enter the discussion.

I've seen 15's reach par 4's in two on days the system wasn't turned on, that they never reached when it was irrigated daily. It was a short lived condition due to drought, but, every other day, the course would come alive. The result being joy on the guys face who could control his ball flight, but lacked the carry distance to get the needed bounces.

[Keith Grande]

I find most of the courses in the NY-Long Island area play tougher when soft, as the courses often play considerably longer in these conditions.  Iron shots will hold on greens better, but getting to them, esepcially on long par 4's makes this a difficult proposition.

[Carl Johnson]

F&F.

Fall play seems to bring out Faster and Firmer conditions.
Less rain, less humidity, less stress on the turf, so why is there a resistance to get conditions F&F through out the year as much as Mother Nature will permit.

I think I figured it out.

F&F accentuates errors which in turn inflates scores, and golfers want lower, not higher handicaps.
Well, at least most golfers want to improve.

So, is F&F it's own worst enemy ?

Pat,

You make a faulty correlation from lower scores to improvement. Stick with me here!!

If you change the game from one of firm and fast to soft, slow and green you've changed the game and made it easier.

Certainly there are people that can fool themselves into thinking that performing better, in an absolute measurement, means they have improved but that's all they're doing.

Similarly, you wouldn't say the guy that shoots 78 from the mens tees is better than the guy that shoots 80 from the championship tees, would you?

So, I agree that people want the game to be easier, but why not just make the hole bigger? That way we can have healthy grass too!!!

Forget easier/harder for a moment, and forget higher/lower scores for a moment.  Is it possible for some players to prefer F & F because it's just plain more fun for them?

[Brent Hutto]

F&F.

Fall play seems to bring out Faster and Firmer conditions.
Less rain, less humidity, less stress on the turf, so why is there a resistance to get conditions F&F through out the year as much as Mother Nature will permit.

I think I figured it out.

F&F accentuates errors which in turn inflates scores, and golfers want lower, not higher handicaps.
Well, at least most golfers want to improve.

So, is F&F it's own worst enemy ?

Pat,

You make a faulty correlation from lower scores to improvement. Stick with me here!!

If you change the game from one of firm and fast to soft, slow and green you've changed the game and made it easier.

Certainly there are people that can fool themselves into thinking that performing better, in an absolute measurement, means they have improved but that's all they're doing.

Similarly, you wouldn't say the guy that shoots 78 from the mens tees is better than the guy that shoots 80 from the championship tees, would you?

So, I agree that people want the game to be easier, but why not just make the hole bigger? That way we can have healthy grass too!!!

Forget easier/harder for a moment, and forget higher/lower scores for a moment.  Is it possible for some players to prefer F & F because it's just plain more fun for them?

Me Me Me...

You're talking about ME!

And if I'm playing an actual game (match) against someone, the fun factor of firm and fast is so much amplified because each of those crazy and/or lucky bounces has consequences Right Now rather than just affecting the number in the handicap computer. Plus I can enjoy my own and my opponent's shots on a firm-and-fast course, shots I may not see on a soft one.

[C. Squier]

Pat, I think some confuse f&f and "not soft". "Not soft" conditions are easier to score for most, but when a course gets truly firm and fast, I doubt many score better.

CSquire,

I tend to agree, true F&F presents an unusual challenge that few have experienced.

I had some guest to GCGC recently, two had never seen the course before.
One was a low handicap the other a mid-teen handicap.
I don't know that they ever adjusted to the conditions which were a far departure from their home course.

Time after time their approaches and recoveries ran long with the mid-teen handicap never getting the hang of it..

I also think golfers don't see the difference between firm AND fast.  Oakmont is fast.  Hidden Creek is firm.  Wedges bite at Oakmont, wedges bounce 5 ft in the air and roll out at HC.  The big difference is the acceptance of shots, not stimp....IMO.

[jeffwarne]

Pat, I think some confuse f&f and "not soft". "Not soft" conditions are easier to score for most, but when a course gets truly firm and fast, I doubt many score better.

CSquire,

I tend to agree, true F&F presents an unusual challenge that few have experienced.

I had some guest to GCGC recently, two had never seen the course before.
One was a low handicap the other a mid-teen handicap.
I don't know that they ever adjusted to the conditions which were a far departure from their home course.

Time after time their approaches and recoveries ran long with the mid-teen handicap never getting the hang of it..

I also think golfers don't see the difference between firm AND fast.  Oakmont is fast.  Hidden Creek is firm.  Wedges bite at Oakmont, wedges bounce 5 ft in the air and roll out at HC.  The big difference is the acceptance of shots, not stimp....IMO.

AGREED
If we'd quit worrying so much about the latter, we'd get more of the former

[Carl Johnson]

Pat, I think some confuse f&f and "not soft". "Not soft" conditions are easier to score for most, but when a course gets truly firm and fast, I doubt many score better.

CSquire,

I tend to agree, true F&F presents an unusual challenge that few have experienced.

I had some guest to GCGC recently, two had never seen the course before.
One was a low handicap the other a mid-teen handicap.
I don't know that they ever adjusted to the conditions which were a far departure from their home course.

Time after time their approaches and recoveries ran long with the mid-teen handicap never getting the hang of it..

I also think golfers don't see the difference between firm AND fast.  Oakmont is fast.  Hidden Creek is firm.  Wedges bite at Oakmont, wedges bounce 5 ft in the air and roll out at HC.  The big difference is the acceptance of shots, not stimp....IMO.

If we are going to be technical about this, shouldn't we distinguish between (1) fairways and (2) greens, that is, F & F fairways and F & F greens, or just one or the other, particularly in the case of the greens.  ((3) could be collar/short approach areas if we really want to be picky.)  My first impression of Scottish links courses was F & F fairways, but F & S greens.  My home course in the NC piedmont strives for, and right now has, F & F fairways, but our greens are not particularly firm, and their speed varies according to the season and maintenance.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carl,

When I referenced F&F, I wasn't confining it to a portion of the golf course, rather the entire course.

And I agree with you about the "fun" aspect until F&F conditions get to the point where the golfer's ability isn't sufficient to meet the enhanced challenge.

Keith,

I doubt many have played really F&F conditions.
Conditions where the greens are firm and running at 12+.
Conditions where the fairways and approaches are F&F.

The other myth is that the poorer golfer scores lower with F&F because they get more distance.
Poorer golfers aren't as straight as low handicap golfers, thus F&F gets them into more trouble and their skill level isn't sufficient for them to adjust and handle true F&F conditions.

At 12-12+ a downhill/sidehill 6 footer will probably result in 3 or 4 putts, and pitching/chipping to those greens is a frightening prospect to a higher handicap

[Jud_T]

Pat,

You don't need 12+ for true F&F conditions.  12+ with real firmness is borderline silly golf on any greens with interesting contour/slope.  The British Open is typically running, what, 10+? 12+ with anything more than a 2 club wind and you're packing it in.

[Adam Clayman]

Some value the uniqueness of the extreme conditions, hard or soft, knowing full well that they will change, further and continually challenging the golfer's awareness and adaptability.

Frozen ground is about as firm as it gets and it's not only a blast to play, calculating the correct carry distance is about as challenging and creative as a shot maker can ask for.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

You don't need 12+ for true F&F conditions.

Jud,

I don't know that I'd deem 10 as "fast"
12 seems more in line with "fast"

Combine that with firm and you have very challenging conditions for most golfers

12+ with real firmness is borderline silly golf on any greens with interesting contour/slope.  

I'd disagree.
Atlantic, NGLA, Seminole, ANGC and Mountain Ridge achieve those speeds when Mother Nature co-operates.

Not sure what the difference between "firmness" and "real firmness" is.

As I stated, I doubt that many have played F&F when greens are at 12+.
I can assure you, mid to high handicaps don't score better.

The British Open is typically running, what, 10+? 12+ with anything more than a 2 club wind and you're packing it in.
Wind certainly has to be taken into consideration when green speeds can be elevated above 10.

The pace of the greens was one of the first things I noticed when playing the courses at Bandon

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()