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Jim Franklin

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Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« on: August 30, 2013, 01:30:32 PM »
What is the difference between the two? The Double Plateau at Fishers Island is certainly not a Biarritz, but the Double Plateau at St Louis CC is also called a Biarritz. Hmmmmm.....

Love both holes by the way.
Mr Hurricane

Bill_McBride

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 01:34:37 PM »
Comparing 9 and 17 at Yale, the Biarritz at 9 has plateaus front and back, 17 the Double Plateau has them side by side with a swale in between.  I think that is the defining difference.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2013, 01:41:41 PM »
Jim,

I think you recognize them when you see them.

As Bill indicated, the swale between the two tiers is usually the differentiator, whereas "double plateaus" and not aligned in a linear fashion, as a "biarritz" is.

Will Lozier

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2013, 01:53:47 PM »
Conceptually, I would say a Biarritz green could be turned into a Double Plateau if...you could pull the front of the Biarritz down and to one side like taffy.

But hey, I am a math teacher!

Cheers

Jim Franklin

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2013, 01:54:29 PM »
The Double Plateau at St Louis is aligned linearly and not side by side, but they call it a Double Plateau on the scorecard. In addition, I do not recall playing many, if any Biarritz, where the pin was in the swale. It was in the swale at St Louis.

I agree that a "typical" Double Plateau is angled, but yesterday's hole made me question the origination of the terms and the differences.
Mr Hurricane

Mark McKeever

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2013, 02:02:48 PM »
Also, remember the maiden green.  Which has two high tiers in the back left and right corner with a swale in the middle leading to a flat front portion of the green generally.   Dedham Country Club and Morris County have great examples of Maiden greens.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2013, 03:59:48 PM »
A drawing like this is a good indicator of the difference. Note the date/author:



The plateaus are also at different elevations.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 04:01:37 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

David Kelly

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2013, 04:10:10 PM »
The Double Plateau at St Louis is aligned linearly and not side by side, but they call it a Double Plateau on the scorecard. In addition, I do not recall playing many, if any Biarritz, where the pin was in the swale. It was in the swale at St Louis.

I agree that a "typical" Double Plateau is angled, but yesterday's hole made me question the origination of the terms and the differences.

Jim,

You're right about St. Louis CC but that's the only time I have seen a course call would we would clearly see as a Biarritz a Double-Plateau. Does anyone know why St. Louis does this?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mark Steffey

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2013, 05:21:30 PM »
a biarritz you can/may lose sight of a playing partner while he is putting.

a double plateau that would never have a chance of happening.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2013, 01:32:18 AM »

You're right about St. Louis CC but that's the only time I have seen a course call would we would clearly see as a Biarritz a Double-Plateau. Does anyone know why St. Louis does this?

A guess: maybe for CBM/Raynor, Double-Plateau referred to greens that contained the swale and both sides of it, while on a Biarritz, the green was behind the swale.  

Sean_A

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2013, 03:11:19 AM »
I always thought of the double as less rigid in design concept than the B.  Isn't the DP set at an angle to play while the B is straight on?  Is there any thought that DPs were not for par 3s (for whatever reason)?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2013, 03:54:06 AM »
a biarritz you can/may lose sight of a playing partner while he is putting.

a double plateau that would never have a chance of happening.

Mark,

The 16th at Essx County Easr might be the exception to that.

Jim,

Naming a hole as one of the templates, doesn't necessarily establish pedigree status in terms of the hole qualifying as a template.

Sometimes the naming of a hole is a very loose interpretation.

An example might be the 17th at Westhampton.
In Raynor's plan/drawing, he labeled # 17 as a Biarritz in his own hand writing, and while # 17 has the making of , or some of the elements of a Biarritz, I think you'd be hard pressed to identify/label it as a Biarritz.


Bill Brightly

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2013, 04:02:43 AM »
For starters, all the Biarritz holes were NOT double-tiered greens. Secondly, Biarritz holes are long par threes. Maintaining the front section as putting surface is a modern trend which I like because it creates a fast and firm landing area so those playing a running shot actually can have their ball make it down and up the swale. I think Yale was the first to make this change.

Most Double Plateau greens that I have seen have the Plateaus arranged in an offset fashion, as Sean A says. And the greens are found on par 4 or par 5 holes.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 04:04:21 AM by Bill Brightly »

Jim Nugent

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2013, 04:12:28 AM »
Pat, at St. Louis CC the swale is in the green, and has been since at least the early 1920s.  I think there's a good chance it was always that way.  If not, someone would have had to change a basic structure real soon after the course was built.  Also, would they name a hole Double Plateau if the green had no plateaus? 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2013, 04:20:48 AM »
Jim,

Just because a club calls/labels a hole as a specific template, doesn't mean that it's physical properties qualify it as being that template.

Bill,

Not sure that I agree with you on the maintenance of the front tier of a Biarritz.

Scott Ramsey stated that the many core samples he took at # 9 at Yale confirmed that it was always maintained as putting surface.
And, if you read the early description (1926 I think) of how the hole is to be played, it would seem to confirm that the front tier was always intended to be putting surface.

Agree on the offset on the double plateau.
# 2 at The Knoll and # 16 at ECE are amongst the best

What are you guys doing up so early ? ;D
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 04:23:41 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2013, 09:38:42 PM »
Why was I up at 4:30 am? Waking up to go to the bathroom, just like you...

I'll go dig up the article that describes the play of Yale's Biarritz, but it has been posted here before: it says the play was a low running shot to the approach between the bunkers, through the swale to the putting green. That was the entire point of Macdonald's design, to test the player's ability to hit a low running shot with a long club. There is no way he envisioned an "alternative" front section of the green. If THAT was his intent, NONE of the Biarritz holes would have fairway approaches like Fishers Island.

These holes were built before irrigation systems, before balls could fly 200 yards in the air. So the design made perfect sense back then.


Bill Brightly

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2013, 09:52:17 PM »
Pat, at St. Louis CC the swale is in the green, and has been since at least the early 1920s.  I think there's a good chance it was always that way.  If not, someone would have had to change a basic structure real soon after the course was built.  Also, would they name a hole Double Plateau if the green had no plateaus?  

Jim,

They did not have to change the structure at all, just the mowing height... I'll bet a dollar to a donut that the area before the swale was built as the approach. Maybe they changed it to putting surface before Yale? But I always wondered if St. Louis CC had bunkers on the right side when the hole was first built, or just the left? That would be a pretty unique variation for Macdonald and Raynor.

Phil McDade

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2013, 10:01:54 PM »
An excerpt from a thread on Blue Mound G&CC (Raynor intact), where -- wouldn't you know -- the Double Plateau and Biarritz follow each other (note particularly George Bahto's description of the DPlateau concept, taken from his GCA interview):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45401.0.html

#2 (par 4, 415/400 – Double Plateau)
One of the tightest drives on the course leads to a blind outcome, as Raynor used a small ridge to hide the landing area of the fairway. While there is some room right, OB looms just a few steps beyond the tree line left.


The green at the 2nd, one of the best at Blue Mound (which is saying something, given how good the greens are here).  The large, triangular shaped green has three distinct sections – lower right, upper back, and front left. Although the front of the green is open, traps nearly completely encircle the sides and back of the green. The golfer not precise with an approach shot will often be putting from one section to another. Here are several looks at the green.




Here is George Bahto’s description of the Double Plateau green from the GCA archives, which fits the 2nd at Blue Mound nearly exactly: “The green was generally in an ‘L’ shape and contained at least three levels. A lower level in the center of the green, one plateau one and a half feet higher and a third plateau higher yet. The plateaux were most often right rear and left front but came in varied configurations. The lower level funnelled aggressive shots directly into the rear bunker beyond. Pin placements are very difficult because for what has been created is essentially three small greens on one putting surface.”

#3 (par 3, 220/200 – Biarritz)
The Biarritz – at Blue Mound, the front half of the greensite is kept as tightly mown fairway, not as a putting surface.



The course received quite a bit of rain the day before I was there, and thus didn’t play as fast and firm as it might have otherwise. Still, in watching several players take on the 3rd, not one attempted a ground-game approach to this back-pin location. With such a pronounced swale fronting the putting surface, I’d be interested to know how often the traditional approach to playing a Biarritz is utilized by the membership.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2013, 10:15:22 PM »
Great photos, Phil. Thats is certainly classic double plateau construction, just like so many other Bank sand Raynor courses that I have played.

For those who doubt that Biarritz holes NEVER were constructed with the front section as putting surfaces, think how precise Raynor and Banks were in building their templates. Raynor would not deviate at a course like SLCC, then build Fishers without the front section also as putting surface.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 10:18:18 PM by Bill Brightly »

Jim Nugent

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2013, 12:01:19 AM »
Quote
They did not have to change the structure at all, just the mowing height

Bill, they had to double the size of the green, in a way the designers never intended -- if the green did not originally contain the swale.  

I also wonder why they would name it Double Plateau, if there were no plateaus?  Perhaps they doubled the size of the green, changed the mowing patterns, and gave it a different name.  


Bill Brightly

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2013, 02:19:42 AM »
Jim,

Maybe I am confused. Are you saying that St. Louis calls their Biarritz par 3 "Double Plateau" on their scorecard?

Or is there another hole they call Double Plateau?

Jim Nugent

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2013, 05:04:55 AM »
Bill, yes, I'm pretty sure SLCC calls its Biarritz "Double Plateau."

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2013, 07:14:09 AM »
The green in the overall Biarritz concept is just a subset of Double Plateau.

That's it.

Or it is at least as far as I'm concerned.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2013, 03:39:54 PM »
The green in the overall Biarritz concept is just a subset of Double Plateau.

That's it.

Or it is at least as far as I'm concerned.

No Ally, if they are calling their Biarritz par 3 "Double Plateau" they are simply mistaken. These are two distinct green complexes. And for a such a famous MacRaynor course, they really should correct this misnomer.

Buck Wolter

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Re: Difference between a Biarritz Hole and a Double Plateau?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2013, 04:32:28 PM »
Pulled out my Evangelist of Golf and looked at the routing map of SLCC -- it is unattributed but due to the fact that Ladue is misspelled Ladae on it makes me think it is a McRaynor drawing and not something created by the club. Each hole is named on the map --the 2nd Hole is called Double Plateau but with '(Biarritz)' below, #4 is called St Andrews with '(Road)' notated, #7 is Shorty with no notation and #16 is called Narrows but there is a Double Plateau Green written in at the green.
 
My guess is they haven't changed the hole names in 99 years and probably won't start now.

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

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