Quantity over Quality and the push for a full 18 holes?

[James Boon]

There have been many threads on here discussing 9 hole courses, including the recent one of the British Top 100 (which seems to be pushing it a little). But we often come round to the same handful of handful or so of very good 9 hole courses whilst the rest are considered more as good fun or great for holiday golf?

However Sean Arbles recent thread on Hesketh got me thinking?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56583.0.html
Now I've not yet managed to play Hesketh but from the photos and Google Maps aerial the land at Hesketh appears to be clearly split into one side of the road which is solid links golf (containing 7 holes) and the rest a little flatter and perhaps therefore more dull? Now the courses history is described on the thread, but it did make me realise that it wouldnt be beyond the whit of a decent designer to put a very good 9 holes on the better land AND THEN just leave it as that, a nine hole course. All hypothetical of course...

This got me thinking further, how many courses are there out there where if they had restricted themselves to 9 holes they would have a much better course or perhaps where an original 9 holes that was pretty good has extended to 18 only to water down the quality?

I'd be interested to know your thoughts? Not necessarily should we have more 9 hole courses as thats been touched on before, but if we had more 9 hole courses would they perhaps be more of them of better quality?

Cheers,

James

[Duncan Cheslett]

The example that springs to my mind is Abersoch in North Wales; a classic Harry Varden nine hole links course of true quality, to which has been tacked on a further nine holes on an adjacent cow pasture. I've not yet played it but I believe Portmadoc along the coast is a similar case.

Helsby in Cheshire has a very good back nine designed by Braid preceeded by a rather uninspiring front nine added later. Up the road from me I remember Marple being a nine-holer back in the 1970's and a 14 or 15 holer in the early 90's. Soon after that it was extended to a "full" 18 holes shoe-horned onto pretty much to the same piece of land!

To my mind it is a real pity that 18 holes ever became such a rigid standard for a golf course. It has led to a belief among most golfers that 9-hole courses are not to be taken seriously, and that courses with 12 or 15 holes are just plain weird! It has also led to unsatisfactory solutions such as those outlined above, not to mention the problem of a game of golf taking up pretty well the whole of a day once travelling, warming up, and a couple of beers afterwards are considered. This may not have been an issue to Edwardian gentleman golfers with dutiful wives at home attended by servants, but it most certainly is a big problem today in attracting young family men to become golf club members.

Ideally the number of holes on a course should not be a standard number; but flexible according to the land available. Handicapping would simply require a mathematical adjustment. If we had to be bequeathed a standard number of holes by our illustrious forebears I just wish they had picked on 12 or 15 instead of 18.


In  the unlikely event of 12 holes suddenly becoming the standard golf course Reddish Vale would be a world class facility and we'd have a few mill in the bank from the sale of land for housing and the current clubhouse as a nursing home!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Not played either but Leven/Lundin would seem to be the poster childs for this.

Golf goes back a long way. Leven was first a 9 holer and then 18 holes, out and back, shared with the next village Lundin.  IN 1909 both villages wanted their own 18 holes and they both had to go across a railway track for the extra land.

The desire for 18 holes was firmly entrenched over a century ago.

But I'll play the game.  Holes 1-9 at Royal County Down should be played repeatedly!

[Ken Moum]

Not played either but Leven/Lundin would seem to be the poster childs for this.

Golf goes back a long way. Leven was first a 9 holer and then 18 holes, out and back, shared with the next willage Lundin.  IN 1909 both villages wanted a their own 18 hoes and they both had to go to less suitbale land across a railway track for the extra land.

The desire for 18 holes was firmly entrenched over a cnetury ago.

But I'll play the game.  Holes 1-9 at Royal County Down should be played repeatedly!

I have played Lundin and it's a good example.  And Cullen, which my wife and I played a couple of weeks ago in a comp. is also an example, although some might say even the original nine isn't great.  Personally I think it's on one of the prettiest pieces of seaside land I've ever seen.

In the places I have lived in the US, there are lots of examples of courses that expanded and either ended up with a course that seems somehow disjointed, or just plain odd.

Of course, no one would consider any of them excellent courses in their original configuration.

K

[Frank Pont]

Pyle & Kenfig (Colt) in Wales is another example, with 9 great links holes and 9 OK holes in a pasture on the other side of the road.

In Holland we have Domburg, a 9 holes links course that was built early in the last century, which usually is considered the best 9 holes course. They have plans to expand to 18 holes in an area across the road. I was asked to bid for the job, but expressed no interest once it became clear that the club was going to build the second 9 holes as a flat polder course....

Furthermore there are many Frank Pennink courses in Holland that were 9 holes originally, and then later were expanded (often by Donald Steel's firm). At most of these courses the second nine are inferior to the first nine, partly due to the land they got wasn't as good, partly due to less inspired design.

[Thomas Dai]

Pyle & Kenfig (Colt) in Wales is another example, with 9 great links holes and 9 OK holes in a pasture on the other side of the road.

Nice call from Frank about P&K. There is certainly a disparity in character between the two 9's. Actually I quite like the front-9, nice green complexes and drains well too. The back-9 though, is spectacular, although it doesn't drain well, and in the winter the club play a slightly different version of the back-9 but still within the same dune complex.
Newburgh-on-Ythan, 10 miles north of Aberdeen, was a charming 9-holer. Haven't played it since it was expanded to 18-holes however.
All the best.

[Mark Pearce]

In a reversal of this trend I see that Chorleywood, where I used to play before moving North, is listed in that 100 Best GB 9 holers list.  Chorleywood used to be 18 holes (and a very compact 18 it must have been) but was reduced (I think effectively an entirley new course was built on some of the existing land) to 9 holes at some stage in the early middle of the last century.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The thing with the Pyle & Kenfig course is that it is the OK holes that are the original and are also Colt... The back nine in the dunes was added later by MacKenzie-Ross

[Sean_A]

Porthmadog is an excellent example.  Jeez, what a waste of time the front nine is. 

I am not sure I would P&K in the same category.  The front 9 is good if of a different character than the back 9.  The thing is, if there was no front 9, there wouldn't be a course in the winter because the dune holes close down. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Here are some shorter versions of GCA favourites, where the land furthest from the clubhouse yields less interesting holes. This must be true of a few out and back routings where the spectacular land is at the start and end.  Others have the flatter lands as a means to get into the dunes and then back out again.
Both of these routings do get played, mainly early in the morning.

Deal 11 holes   North Berwick 13 holes
1-6, 15-18      1-7, 13-18

Even shorter versions might be.
Deal                           
1-4, 17-18             6 holes
1-5, 16-8              8 holes


North Berwick
1-6, 14-18   10 holes

Burnham and Berrow would adapt itself well to this?
Cruden Bay (guessing at)  1-8, 17,18?

[Jason Topp]

Turn Troon into a 6 hole course

[Michael Whitaker]

The first three holes that were tacked on at Dunbar on the inland side of the stone wall are sad. It should have been left as a 15 hole course.

[Pete_Pittock]

Elkhorn Valley, in the hills to the east of Salem, OR. Nine holes, fairly level, cut out of the timber by the landowner and operator. It made a great one day destination tournament for some of our club members. All they had was a single wide and a BBQ.  We'd load up food and  beverages for lunch, play 18 white first, then blues and have a grand time. We'd bet on sub-par holes and lost ball totals. One year Alex Hoffert started birdie-eagle-ace, then hit that ball into the lake on 4.
The last outing was the first year after expansion. It wasn't the same.

[James Boon]

Thanks all for the responses.

I have looked at Abersoch and Portmadog from just the aerial photos, and from that alone (a dangerous assumption I know but), its clear that both these courses could be excellent destinations if in the area IF they were 9 hole courses?

Mark,

Interesting to hear Chorleywood has gone the other way? I suspect there may have been some other motive at work here, rather than the desire to get a better course by eliminating the poor holes???

For the sake of this argument I can understand the principle of regulating the number of holes, be it 6, 9 or 18 say, so those courses with say 13 or 14 wonderful holes and then a handful of dull ones on poor land just have to pull themselves together and make the best of those few holes.

Its those that have a wonderful 9 holes but feel the need to squeeze in a second 9 of sub standard or dull holes just for the sake of being a full 18 that I feel is a real shame. And if they didnt there is a good chance that Royal Worlington might have some competition for the best 9 hole course in the... wherever!    

Cheers,

James

[Frank Pont]

The thing with the Pyle & Kenfig course is that it is the OK holes that are the original and are also Colt... The back nine in the dunes was added later by MacKenzie-Ross

Ally, thanks, did not know that. Philip did some pretty good work, also had a hand in Hardelot......

[Frank Pont]

The holes in that field across the road at Tenby are so bad it hurts. That is a 14 hole golf course. I will refuse to play them next time.

A big +1

[Sean_A]

The holes in that field across the road at Tenby are so bad it hurts. That is a 14 hole golf course. I will refuse to play them next time.

A big +1

Aren't there three holes over the tracks?  Luckily, the 14th green is quite close to the 18th tee.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Tenby,
The 15th ain't exactly a bad hole, it just follows that vile, off-putting walk over the bridge from the 14th green. The 16th is a indeed pretty awful hole (murderous green to putt on too). The 17th is a unique par-3, if it came anywhere else other than after the much loathed 16th it would most likely be considered weak or eccentric but probably okay, and then it's the trudge back over the railway line to the 18th tee. Such a shame that all 18-holes arn't on the seaward side of the railway line. Some wonderful holes at Tenby though. That 3rd hole is just pure evil, but really lovely at the same time.
Cruden Bay,
The loop of holes 1-7 followed by 17 & 18 on the Championship course are often played by members, especially late in the summer evenings. Should other players come off the 16th green of the Championship course those members playing 'the loop' normally either wait, join them if making less than 4, walk-in or walk over to the par-3 2nd hole on the wonderful St Olaf course.
All the best.

[Tom_Doak]

Several of the best nine-hole courses in America had a second nine holes added years later which have usually been a disappointment.  Of the best nine-hole courses I listed in The Confidential Guide twenty years ago, Rolling Rock in PA, Urbana in OH, and Harrison Hills IN all added a second nine; I think there was one more but can't remember which now.  

Prairie Dunes was considered the best nine-hole course in America before they added their second nine in the mid-1950's ... the newer holes are ok but the original nine [1-2-6-7-8-9-10-17-18] are really the best nine holes on the property and just imagine playing them around and around again!

God knows there are a bunch of other courses that should have been less than 18 holes.  The one that jumps to mind right now is Old Head; they should have just made a loop around the perimeter and called it a day.

The only in-between course I've ever played (besides The Sheep Ranch) is the 12-hole Shiskine course on Arran (they once had 18 holes, but abandoned the uninteresting last six).  I know that Northeast Harbor in Maine had 15 holes for many years, but think I heard that they extended it to 18 finally, sadly.

[Josh Bills]

Having grown up in Urbana (though playing most of my golf on the Woodland GC public course designed by Kidwell) I have been fortunate enough to play Urbana CC original nine by Paul Dye done in 1922 about 40 times and 30 times since the new nine done by P.B. Dye in 1993 and while the original nine is definitely better from an architectural standpoint, P.B.'s side has matured nicely from the corn fields from which it was born.  His green complexes are all well done and he used the elevation changes to create some nice interest.  The green speeds of both sides are quite similar and I don't know if that is based upon using same type of green makeup or just the work of the super.  Is the original nine still better, yes, but the new has some great holes (par 3- 3rd, par 4- 5th a great short par 4, par 3-6th and par 5- 8th).  As a throwback they are a course that still doesn't have tee times and to be able to play this course anytime is always a treat.

[Tom_Doak]

Josh:

Thanks for the report on the second nine at Urbana, which I haven't seen.  [I actually bid this year in a charity auction to play the course with P.B., but somebody outbid me.]

I shouldn't have implied it was a disappointment, since I haven't seen the course.  To me, the disappointment is the idea that a great nine-hole course is not enough, that a second nine should be added even if it's inferior. 

[Josh Bills]

Tom- overall I would say P.B. did a great job of making interesting holes, but it is just hard to beat the original 9.  So your premise that nine holes is not enough might be accurate, though I would not call P.B.'s nine inferior by any stretch of the imagination.  Different than the original, but inferior is not the right word, maybe envious of it's older brother, but equally as capable, is the best I can come up with.  Pete and P.B. both have been more than generous with their time and abilities to make UCC such a wonderful course.  To give full disclosure my father in law (who is still a member) and I won the member-guest out there 10-15 years ago, so that course with P.B.'s nine will always be a special spot for me.

[Michael Moore]

I know that Northeast Harbor in Maine had 15 holes for many years, but think I heard that they extended it to 18 finally, sadly.

Tom,

Nine holes of Northeast Harbor fell into disuse during World War II and only six came back. This is far more sad than their successful attempt to have a complete golf course.

I resisted visiting for years. Some people on this board made fun of me and called me lacking in imagination. But really, nobody wants to play fifteen holes. I don't know how else to put it.

Do the new holes fit in? No. Is it exciting to try to bust one onto the green at the spectacular 296-yard downhill closing hole? You'll have to ask Bradford Tufts, I'll bet he tried it.

[Carl Nichols]

Pacific Grove? 

[Paul Dolton]

Porthmadog is an excellent example.  Jeez, what a waste of time the front nine is. 

I am not sure I would P&K in the same category.  The front 9 is good if of a different character than the back 9.  The thing is, if there was no front 9, there wouldn't be a course in the winter because the dune holes close down. 

Ciao
[/iquote] I total agree with Sean about Portmadog. Two totally different nines. And as mentioned the front nine is not good!