Bahia de los Sueños - can anybody shed any light...

[Jim McCann]

... on what, if anything, is happening with this Mexican development?

Thanks.

[Jason Topp]

Jim:

Greg Tallman posted some pictures earlier this year.  I do not believe it is being maintained at all.

[Tom_Doak]

It's closed and the irrigation is off.

There is an interested party in Cabo who has been negotiating to buy it for some time, but they have not been able to close the deal.  I think the hold-up is due to legal / title issues more than $$, but the price keeps going down as what's left of the course deteriorates.

[Jim McCann]

Tom

Many thanks, I knew from earlier gca correspondence that the place had been closed but wasn't sure if it had reopened again this year.

[Greg Tallman]

Tom

Many thanks, I knew from earlier gca correspondence that the place had been closed but wasn't sure if it had reopened again this year.

Nothing left there. Diamante bought every golf related item they had remaining, equipment, range balls... everything.

They stopped irrigatng all but greens 14 months ago and then shut the water off completely around the end of 2012. Everything is dead.

The interested party is not from Cabo but was a key member of the team that got Palmilla and Cabo del Sol off the ground. Joe is a former Landmark guy as well as his leadership roll with Koll Resort International here in Cabo.  

Project was a reach during good times, now...

[Carl Rogers]

Tom, sorry to hear this,  ..... occupational hazard.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, sorry to hear this,  ..... occupational hazard.

Carl:

No need to feel bad.  The project kept a bunch of guys fed for the better part of two years.  Just too bad more people didn't get to play it.

[Jud_T]

I really hope this deal gets done.  It's a very neat course in a wonderful location, even if it is a bit off the beaten track.  For those interested, here's a link to the photo tour I did a while back, although some of the pix seem to have been lost to the net:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46926.0.html

All the missing pix and more are here on Golf Architecture Pictures:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Mexico/Bahia-Los-Suenos/index.html

[Carl Rogers]

Tom, sorry to hear this,  ..... occupational hazard.

Carl:
No need to feel bad.  The project kept a bunch of guys fed for the better part of two years.  Just too bad more people didn't get to play it.

Even in its roughed out form I thought the 9th hole was terrific.

[Jim Nelson]

I traveled to this complex in January of 2011 and the best I could come up with was "what were they thinking?"  The resort certainly would fall into the category of excess bank lending where someone in the States probably never visited and said why not?  I am quite sure if you visited there now, it would indeed be quite sad, as much of the resort was finished along the coast with nice appointments, rooms and common areas including a large screening room and another area called the "Train Barn" or something like that.  Wonder what happened to all those trains?  Anyway, here's my take.

1.  Rough at best.  I came thru Cabo so it is possible it was easier thru La Paz, but I don't think they have the same lift in there.  Halfway thru our journey out to the course along the coastal route, my traveling partner and i looked at each other and the WTF? look was clear.  After we passed a couple of dead animals along the road, our driver admitted he had no idea where he was going.  There were a few moments when we were not sure we would make it in one piece and he mentioned that we couldn't stop at one or two of the small towns.  Weren't safe.  Great.

2.  A person I know who has sailed those waters a fair amount couldn't remember any place called Bahia de los Suenos.  Further research seems to indicate someone changed the name.  It used to be Bahia de la Muerte I believe.  Not positive about that, but if true, big difference.  And sorta funny in retrospect.  

3.  Course was interesting, routing was a little different and all in all, not a Doak course I would need to play again.  If you are going to build something that requires this much effort, it had better be so special that people can't live without it.  I would say that the original developer put a crimp in the routing, but no way for me to know that.

The only way this was going to survive after our my visit was thru the largess of someone with deep pockets.  I had met the owner at the point (third?) who seemed to be a nice man.  Sorry it didn't work for him.

 I remember sitting on the beach at night and thinking about what a beautiful spot it is.  There must be so many of these around the world.  They don't all need golf courses.

[Greg Tallman]

I traveled to this complex in January of 2011 and the best I could come up with was "what were they thinking?"  The resort certainly would fall into the category of excess bank lending where someone in the States probably never visited and said why not?  I am quite sure if you visited there now, it would indeed be quite sad, as much of the resort was finished along the coast with nice appointments, rooms and common areas including a large screening room and another area called the "Train Barn" or something like that.  Wonder what happened to all those trains?  Anyway, here's my take.

1.  Rough at best.  I came thru Cabo so it is possible it was easier thru La Paz, but I don't think they have the same lift in there.  Halfway thru our journey out to the course along the coastal route, my traveling partner and i looked at each other and the WTF? look was clear.  After we passed a couple of dead animals along the road, our driver admitted he had no idea where he was going.  There were a few moments when we were not sure we would make it in one piece and he mentioned that we couldn't stop at one or two of the small towns.  Weren't safe.  Great. Safety comment was garbage. perhaps you had a driver with personal issues but there are zero safety concerns.

2.  A person I know who has sailed those waters a fair amount couldn't remember any place called Bahia de los Suenos.  Further research seems to indicate someone changed the name.  It used to be Bahia de la Muerte I believe.  Not positive about that, but if true, big difference.  And sorta funny in retrospect. True but only an idiot would not change the name if starting a development. In retrospect...  

3.  Course was interesting, routing was a little different and all in all, not a Doak course I would need to play again.  If you are going to build something that requires this much effort, it had better be so special that people can't live without it.  I would say that the original developer put a crimp in the routing, but no way for me to know that.Very accurate. Tom had very limited access to waterfront land as evidenced in the final product. That said teh land used, apart from that for holes 1,2,5 and 6 was pretty good.

The only way this was going to survive after our my visit was thru the largess of someone with deep pockets.  I had met the owner at the point (third?) who seemed to be a nice man.  Sorry it didn't work for him. Sounds like you met the guy trying to put together the money to take it over.

 I remember sitting on the beach at night and thinking about what a beautiful spot it is.  There must be so many of these around the world.  They don't all need golf courses.

[Jim Nelson]

I traveled to this complex in January of 2011 and the best I could come up with was "what were they thinking?"  The resort certainly would fall into the category of excess bank lending where someone in the States probably never visited and said why not?  I am quite sure if you visited there now, it would indeed be quite sad, as much of the resort was finished along the coast with nice appointments, rooms and common areas including a large screening room and another area called the "Train Barn" or something like that.  Wonder what happened to all those trains?  Anyway, here's my take.

1.  Rough at best.  I came thru Cabo so it is possible it was easier thru La Paz, but I don't think they have the same lift in there.  Halfway thru our journey out to the course along the coastal route, my traveling partner and i looked at each other and the WTF? look was clear.  After we passed a couple of dead animals along the road, our driver admitted he had no idea where he was going.  There were a few moments when we were not sure we would make it in one piece and he mentioned that we couldn't stop at one or two of the small towns.  Weren't safe.  Great. Safety comment was garbage. perhaps you had a driver with personal issues but there are zero safety concerns.  
Greg, I certainly did not mean to offend anyone.  Usually when I do, it's pretty clear.  I think that  getting there is/was part of the problem.  Our route, while probably in the hands of a novice, seemed extreme and one I would not wish to repeat.  You know the area.  In all seriousness, is there a way of getting there that only takes a couple of hours? and without deceased mammals roadside? (seriously, they were there!)   That would seem to be a huge factor in drawing repeat guests.

2.  A person I know who has sailed those waters a fair amount couldn't remember any place called Bahia de los Suenos.  Further research seems to indicate someone changed the name.  It used to be Bahia de la Muerte I believe.  Not positive about that, but if true, big difference.  And sorta funny in retrospect. True but only an idiot would not change the name if starting a development. In retrospect...    

Well of course you would change the name.  I just found it rather ironic... Perhaps someone can interject this into the other thread going about "firsts".  First course to make an ironic change to the local name.  I would, but I'm not welcome in that thread.

3.  Course was interesting, routing was a little different and all in all, not a Doak course I would need to play again.  If you are going to build something that requires this much effort, it had better be so special that people can't live without it.  I would say that the original developer put a crimp in the routing, but no way for me to know that.Very accurate. Tom had very limited access to waterfront land as evidenced in the final product. That said teh land used, apart from that for holes 1,2,5 and 6 was pretty good.

Yep, you nailed the area and clarified the reason.  Pretty much the same for El Dorado II.  I have gone on record as saying that is the most bizarrely routed course I have ever experienced.  All economics.  In comparison, Bahia de los Suenos is far, far better.

The only way this was going to survive after our my visit was thru the largess of someone with deep pockets.  I had met the owner at the point (third?) who seemed to be a nice man.  Sorry it didn't work for him. Sounds like you met the guy trying to put together the money to take it over.

If he owned it two and half years ago, then it would be.  As I mentioned, he seemed like a good guy.  Wish him and/or others all the best, really!  It is a very sweet spot.  

 I remember sitting on the beach at night and thinking about what a beautiful spot it is.  There must be so many of these around the world.  They don't all need golf courses.

[Jud_T]

The drive isn't that bad.  Yes it's about 2.5-3 hours from Cabo depending on traffic and is a bit more rural than some of us have come to expect, but anyone who knows me realizes that I'm not exactly someone who enjoys roughing it and I didn't feel in danger in the least at any point in the journey.  The issue is that the place is frankly in the middle of nowhere between La Paz and Cabo and as such isn't convenient for a quick weekend from LA etc. and thus suffers the same issues as many of today's farther-flung destination clubs that aren't easily accessible by a sufficient contingent of potential members.  As far as the course, while one had to have a bit of imagination in terms of conditioning and amenities of the higher-end clubs in Cabo, it is very good, if perhaps just a notch below the very best Cabo has to offer.  As with all the Doak courses I've played, it would make a wonderful club to play day-in and day out that is fun and challenging without beating you over the head or having to buy a box of Pro-V's before each round and one could probably have a whole house near the beach at Bay of Dreams for the price of a time-share at Diamante.

[Greg Tallman]

Jim,

From our gate at Cabo del Sol it is a little less than 2.5 hours and there is only the one route, highway 1. Not sure what was behind the dead animals but have not experienced that in several trips over the stretch of "highway". The final 20-25 minutes is the worst road through the farmlands and open desert. Honestly though your driver saying stopping at any of the towns along the way was unsafe is a load of crap. Maybe he was angling for a tip, I don't know.

In regard to your comment about the routing at El Dorado, that is what happens when you blow up the final two holes on each nine in favor of real estate. Have not seen the new "routing" but for the life of me cannot figure out how the former 10th hole fits in without a green to tee connection of the better part of a mile.

 

[Jim Nelson]

Jim,

From our gate at Cabo del Sol it is a little less than 2.5 hours and there is only the one route, highway 1. Not sure what was behind the dead animals but have not experienced that in several trips over the stretch of "highway". The final 20-25 minutes is the worst road through the farmlands and open desert. Honestly though your driver saying stopping at any of the towns along the way was unsafe is a load of crap. Maybe he was angling for a tip, I don't know.

Well, clearly we had a bad driver.  Perhaps it was a bad day overall for Route 1 in Cabo.  Seemed like a slog, but then, as I said, bad day, bad driver...  I'll let it go until I go again.  By the way, I am touched in no small measure by sadness of the whole thing.  It was a Bay of Dreams.  They were crushed, and I could not shake that feeling while there.

In regard to your comment about the routing at El Dorado, that is what happens when you blow up the final two holes on each nine in favor of real estate. Have not seen the new "routing" but for the life of me cannot figure out how the former 10th hole fits in without a green to tee connection of the better part of a mile.

A clear real estate play that absolutely killed the routing.  I had never played it before the change, but you play the hole all the way to the ocean where they have a nice little fish taco stand, then drive all the way back up the hole you just played to find the next tee.  Damnedest thing I've ever seen.  But after all those "aid stations" I guess no one really cares.  I, and I'm guessing a few others, find routing to be a key to the success of a course.  Big downer at El Dorado.  But I better shut up.  I think I'll be banned at El Dorado and TD courses worldwide ( another thread) if I don't stop now.  

Curious as to your thoughts on the two odd holes at Diamonte, I think they were 12 and 13?  Was that Real Estate as well or restrictions on the use of the dunes?

 

[Greg Tallman]

As for 12 & 13 at Diamante pretty sure the original desire was to develop the land just below 11 green. Pretty sure the day 1 plan was a hotel site there. Every plan I have seen had significant real estate around 12 and 13 so they were part of the early plan.

Sounds like permitting issues will limit that to golf course use and thus 12 and 13 will go that way soon and the current holes will transition to some form of practice loop with between 3 and 6 holes.

The current 12 and 13 never really bothered me as much as they seem to most people. I know Paul put a lot of work into the lake to make it as natural as possible.

Best guess is new 12 and 13 will open late spring/early summer 2014.

[Daryl David]

Gotta defend Jim a bit.  I was on that trip and the drive from the airport was brutal.  A real car sickness circus.  More like 3 hours plus counting the time my driver got lost.  My driver was  a local golf pro from Querencia, and he was not comfortable stopping and asking directions as we got closer.  I know that it is touchy subject with the expats and business people in Baja.  They spend a lot of time telling you that you are not really in Mexico, that Baja is like another country.   I buy into that have parroted the same when asked why I go there. While I like visiting and playing golf, I am always aware of my surroundings.

But as for Bahia, I just could not figure out how the model was going to work regardless of the routing and quality of the course design.  I just could not imagine who they were going to attract for the real estate let alone the destination stay in the lodging type members.  Even the private jet crowd would not want anything that remote even with a nice airstrip next door.

Lets face it, those were bizarre times in golf development.  I have the scars to prove it!

[Tom_Doak]

I traveled to this complex in January of 2011 and the best I could come up with was "what were they thinking?"  The resort certainly would fall into the category of excess bank lending where someone in the States probably never visited and said why not?  I am quite sure if you visited there now, it would indeed be quite sad, as much of the resort was finished along the coast with nice appointments, rooms and common areas including a large screening room and another area called the "Train Barn" or something like that.  Wonder what happened to all those trains?

Jim:

I don't believe there were any bank loans involved in the development of the property ... that was all somebody's cash.

The first owner(s) built the "resort" you mention as a private home and guest cottages.  They are the ones who hired us to do the golf course ... actually, it was them plus a hotel developer who bailed on the project instead of participating.  So, the property owners went ahead with the golf course, but they were falling short of money to get it finished.

Then another partner came into the deal, from California.  At first he bought three big lots alongside the 18th green to build his home, and then he decided to be their partner, and basically bought out the original owners and sunk many more millions of dollars into the deal.  It's possible he had a bank involved, but I doubt it ... getting U.S. dollar loans for Mexican real estate deals is pretty difficult due to the title issues, which are apparently what held up the sale of the land to the next owner in line.

Could it have worked if the economy hadn't crashed?  I doubt it, but there are a lot of other projects I've seen that are in the same boat as far as that goes.  There are two different projects people contacted me about up the coast in Loreto that seem equally unlikely, but those are still being pursued.

[Greg Tallman]

Jim:

I don't believe there were any bank loans involved in the development of the property ... that was all somebody's cash.

The first owner(s) built the "resort" you mention as a private home and guest cottages.  They are the ones who hired us to do the golf course ... actually, it was them plus a hotel developer who bailed on the project instead of participating.  So, the property owners went ahead with the golf course, but they were falling short of money to get it finished.

Then another partner came into the deal, from California.  At first he bought three big lots alongside the 18th green to build his home, and then he decided to be their partner, and basically bought out the original owners and sunk many more millions of dollars into the deal.  It's possible he had a bank involved, but I doubt it ... getting U.S. dollar loans for Mexican real estate deals is pretty difficult due to the title issues, which are apparently what held up the sale of the land to the next owner in line.

Could it have worked if the economy hadn't crashed?  I doubt it, but there are a lot of other projects I've seen that are in the same boat as far as that goes.  There are two different projects people contacted me about up the coast in Loreto that seem equally unlikely, but those are still being pursued.

Sure looks like one is moving forward up there. RTJ2. It is a beautiful spot but...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I will certainly have to agree with Greg re the safety issue.
I drove up to Los Suenos alone two years ago inbetween the closing and the water cut off and never felt anything but comfortable.
Stopped a few times along the way fro gas/drinks and was totally okay with the surroundings.
Cabo itself is at least as safe to walk around as most cities I have visited, and safteyas an isuue in that part of Mexico not a concern at all.

I love tha area, joined Diamante and love the prospect of visiting Greg at Los Cabos every year to shoot the bull and play their wonderful courses.
Food in the city is awesome, especially if you follow the advice of Greg, sorry this is sounding like a Greg love fest, but to know the guy is to love him his knowledge and insight in the arae is amazing, nothing goes on in the arae golf wise without him knowing about it...

[Greg Tallman]

A few photots from late March/early April

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

 

[Joe Hancock]

That looks plenty playable to me.

[Greg Tallman]

That looks plenty playable to me.

The guy with the $25,000,000 home on site disagrees... vehemently.

[Wayne_Kozun]

It looks like the maintenance meld is certainly firm and fast.