Real Golf

[Wade Whitehead]

We're introducing a new Invitational at Ballyhack this fall that will be played entirely in a foursomes format.

Teams play a round in the morning, stop for a leisurely lunch and refreshments, then convene a second round in the afternoon.  Those who have been to Muirfield will recognize this as the regular Saturday format there.

There will be two divisions, but the gross players will compete in true alternate shot for all 36 holes.  Net players will enjoy a modification or two that will make the round more survivable and enjoyable.

Is there a more pure form of the game?  There certainly isn't a more demanding or fun one.

How does architecture influence play during alternate shot in ways that it may not under other formats?  A golf course that presents options and choices - like Ballyhack - really shines under a rigorous format.

WW

[Steve Lang]

  Wade,

Who gets invited? Is there a handicap index check like for member guest tourneys?

[Wade Whitehead]

Steve:

The event will attract a range of players, eventually from across the country.  Send me a message if you would like more information or if you have questions.

Handicaps are verified, of course, and net scores are calculated into decimals.

WW

[Sean_A]

We're introducing a new Invitational at Ballyhack this fall that will be played entirely in a foursomes format.

Teams play a round in the morning, stop for a leisurely lunch and refreshments, then convene a second round in the afternoon.  Those who have been to Muirfield will recognize this as the regular Saturday format there.

There will be two divisions, but the gross players will compete in true alternate shot for all 36 holes.  Net players will enjoy a modification or two that will make the round more survivable and enjoyable.

Is there a more pure form of the game?  There certainly isn't a more demanding or fun one.

How does architecture influence play during alternate shot in ways that it may not under other formats?  A golf course that presents options and choices - like Ballyhack - really shines under a rigorous format.

WW

Wade

I don't have any idea of your format.  But if its a matchplay and many teams can be knocked out, it may be a good option to have a Bogey 4somes on the finals day.  The finals of course play their matches while everyone else plays in the Bogey 4somes.  This is a great format if to showcase 4somes play - its tough as well.  The format used to be very popular in England, but it has faded quite a bit.  Its a pity.

Ciao

[Wade Whitehead]

Sean:

Foursomes for 36 holes.  No matches, just straight medal play.  Net division receives some accommodations, including strokes, while gross competes through the green.

WW

[Tom_Doak]

Wade:

Congrats on a great idea.  I've tried to get some of my clients to do this on their courses, with little success.

As to your question about how the architecture affects foursomes play, the one thing I learned from the UK is that they think it's a design mistake when all of the par-3 holes are odd-numbered or even-numbered holes -- because then one of the two partners will hit more of the approach shots and fewer drives.  Strangely, this doesn't matter one bit if you are not playing foursomes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Some golf associations determine where the Father tees off in Father-Son tournaments (odd or even) based on which has the most par 3's.

That seems to make good sense since many of the sons are very young and overly challenged by the par 3's

[Sean_A]

Sean:

Foursomes for 36 holes.  No matches, just straight medal play.  Net division receives some accommodations, including strokes, while gross competes through the green.

WW

May I suggest playing Bogey 4somes then.  It does afford the opportunity for guys to pick up when things go awry.  Its a very good format which though tough, does keep play moving very well.

Ciao 

[Tom_Doak]

Demanding, yes. Fun? Depends how well you and your partner are playing. It can be a long day if you're off your game and trying to get a rhythm going. For me, the most fun format is scramble - not pure by any means but you can swing freely and try to pull every shot off, knowing that there won't be grave consequences...

Ugh.  To me there is nothing worse than a scramble, watching four players try to hit a shot that is beyond the capabilities of the last two or three of them.  It's the ultimate hit-and-hope.

[Sean_A]

Demanding, yes. Fun? Depends how well you and your partner are playing. It can be a long day if you're off your game and trying to get a rhythm going. For me, the most fun format is scramble - not pure by any means but you can swing freely and try to pull every shot off, knowing that there won't be grave consequences...

Ugh.  To me there is nothing worse than a scramble, watching four players try to hit a shot that is beyond the capabilities of the last two or three of them.  It's the ultimate hit-and-hope.

I too hate scramble golf. 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Two man scramble is quite a good format, a little bit more forgiving while at the same time quite strategic - you have to think about when to take risks and when to play safe. It's less glacially slow than a full on scramble too.

[Niall C]

I played last week in a member and guest event which was played as a greensome, which is really a variation of the foursome. The scoring was by way of stableford. The first thing you learn about this type of format, is never to say sorry to your partner, because if you do you'll be doing it all day.

Personally, I've played very few scrambles but those I did I really enjoyed, more so than a foursome.I suppose it depends what kind of course you're playing but generally the average members course over here is playable for most therefore ebveryone is in with a shout of contributing.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

I think Greensome (if handicaps are involved) is the most team strategic of any format. I much prefer it to 4some, but its popularity is very low. Frankly, with the way tons of people play 4some (all four players sticking together), Greensome may as well be played.  

Ciao

[Wade Whitehead]

Tom Doak:

In the Kimoyo, teams will switch order between rounds.  The "even" player from the morning becomes the "odd" player in the afternoon.  Every player gets to hit every shot!

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

Sean:

Gross players compete in true alternate shot.  No limit, everything through the green.

Brian, there's no maximum score in the net division, but net players get a break or two designed to assist enjoyment and pace of play.  These include (1) a drop from any non-maintained area (native grasses) with a one-shot penalty (at the closest point IN THE FAIRWAY) and (2) an "instant replay" option, whereby a player's teammate may replay a shot without a penalty.  Example: Player A tees off and hits a [very] wayward shot.  Player B may hit from the same spot, under no penalty, and the team lies two after his stroke.  There's some strategy associated with the instant replay option and uses are not limited.

At any point during the event a gross team may elect to begin using options provided for net teams.  At that point they move out of the gross division and into the net game.  I'm guessing the gross division will become a battle of attrition in some ways, which should be fun.  Plus, this allows a team that just isn't hitting it well to move things along using the net division tweaks.

Each net team's handicaps are averaged, then subtracted from the course rating (including the decimal) for net places and prizes.

Each team will be paired with a different twosome during each of the rounds, not necessarily based on score or division.  The event definitely has a social element to it.

WW

[Thomas Dai]

I think Greensome (if handicaps are involved) is the most team strategic of any format. I much prefer it to 4some, but its popularity is very low. Frankly, with the way tons of people play 4some (all four players sticking together), Greensome may as well be played.  
Ciao

Greensomes where both players tee-off and you then pick which ball to play from then on is terrific. Tactics, strategy, good fun. They used to play it years ago in the Ryder Cup, wish they still did. There's also a double greensome version, where both players tee-off, then play each others second shots only after that do they decide which ball to play from then on.
All the best.

[Carl Rogers]

ignoramus that I am, what is the difference between a 'shambles' and a 'greensome'?

[Steve Kline]

In a shamble, the drive is played as a scramble with everyone playing from the same spot. In greensomes you play your partner's drive. So, it's alternating instead of picking the best drive.

We call double greensomes, Pinehurst alternate shot. I have no idea why.

[Sean_A]

In a shamble, the drive is played as a scramble with everyone playing from the same spot. In greensomes you play your partner's drive. So, it's alternating instead of picking the best drive.

We call double greensomes, Pinehurst alternate shot. I have no idea why.

Greensome is both team mates drive and then one drive is selected to play the hole out on a 4some basis thereafter.  Great format.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

The "day" at Muirfield really shows how much fun foursomes can be.  Four ball in the morning followed by a very liquid lunch and then an amusing afternoon alternate shot game.  Muirfield sees a lot of foursomes play, which you tell by the worn paths from the back of the previous green to a point about 200 yards off the tee at the right edge of the next fairway.   It's a very social game because you and your opposite number have time to chat waiting for the other guys to play their tee balls.    

Wade, great idea to have a foursomes event at Ballyhack.   It's too bad more Americans don't get a chance to play foursomes.  Of course it's usually so fast that you couldn't play on a course where others are playing slower four ball games.  

[Mark Chaplin]

Bill I doubt Muirfield sees any fourball play other than Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Tom 36 hole days are perfect, at Deal if you play odds in the morning and miss the 3s you play evens in the afternoon.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill I doubt Muirfield sees any fourball play other than Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Tom 36 hole days are perfect, at Deal if you play odds in the morning and miss the 3s you play evens in the afternoon.

That's why I referred to "the day."   It really is great, you get to play own ball in the morning and alternate shot in the afternoon.  

It was indeed a great day, with long knocking Philip Gawith as foursomes partner and James Bennett of Adelaide and Andrew Mitchell of Yorkshire as opponents.    Philip and I both got to play approach shots from other than our usual distance!   I will not forget a cracking 3-iron he drilled over all those bunkers in front of 8 from about 230 out!

[Tommy Williamsen]

First let me remind you that I am old.  When I was a kid we played foursomes at my club regularly. But we alternated til the last ball was holed. If I made the put on 6 my partner tees off on 7. There was none of this even and odd tee shots. It made for an I treating round.

[Brad Klein]

All this talk about format of play is superfluous. If it's not jackets & ties when you show up and then change back into for lunch, it's not real golf. And the lunch better be good. Also, the port.

Brad

[Bill_McBride]

Brad, at Muirfield Kelly Blake Moran and I changed BACK into our jacket and tie after the second round so we could have yet another drink in that nice bay window in the clubhouse.  A truly fun day, one I wish every golf enthusiast could enjoy, it's high on the bucket list.