Why no love for Indianwood Old?

[Ed Oden]

Fair enough Mike.  We just view the greens at Indianwood very differently.  As I said in my initial post, that's what makes the world go round.  It would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything.  

[Bart Bradley]

My 2 cents.

Indianwood has a pleasant routing and some good holes.  It definitely could use some added width in the fairways and as stated, this could be easily fixed by changing the mowing lines.  

If someone showed me close-up pictures of the first seventeen greens in random order, I would have a difficult time differentiating them and putting them in the proper order.  Although they have slight variations nearly all of them are generally saucer shaped and of similar size.

The 18th green is way cool and so absolutely different than the other 17 it seems strikingly incongruous.  Why couldn't there have been some more huge, unusual greens?  

If I were to rank best sets of greens in Michigan, my mind would immediately turn to Oakland Hills, Crystal Downs, Kingsley ...perhaps next I would think of Belvedere and Arcadia.  I would have to think a long time before I came to Indianwood and that is why the course doesn't get as much love here as some other courses.

Again, just my opinion.

Bart

[Sean_A]

Bart & Ed

Its interesting that you two see the greens at Indian as too similar in style to really carry the course.  This is what I was saying about the green surrounds at Yeamans - a lot of the same type of recovery shots. 

As Whitty points out, many of the great courses in GB&I have downright staid greens, yet there are still recognized as great. I too have found that sometimes a course can slide on this, that or the other because of "over-riding" factors.  Sometimes its a few standout holes.  Sometimes its great conditioning.  Sometimes its superb greens.  Sometimes its great use of features.  Etc. If Indian had better cut lines, would your overall in that opinion of the course be very different?

Ciao

[Bradley Anderson]

For those who may be interested in the design team of Reid and Connellan I have attached a brief history that I did a few years back.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16492815/History/Reid%20%26%20Connellan.pdf

[John Percival]

It was my great pleasure to be a member at Indianwood for about 6 years. From about 2000 to 2005. Left with a very heavy heart because of the distance from home.
The Old Cse is a unique and outstanding track. The greens' pitch and internal movements require players to be careful/precise on their approaches, or face severe putts or recoveries. The bunkering is often deep and challenging (even fwy bunkers). And the fescue is beautiful and dangerous (just like my wife!). Numbers 8 and 17 are both world-class.
Are there issues? Sure. EVERY course has issues. But, the overall package at I-O is of great and unique character, and a demand for high quality play.
Anyone who doesn't get it, probably doesn't have game.  

[Michael Whitaker]

For those who may be interested in the design team of Reid and Connellan I have attached a brief history that I did a few years back.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16492815/History/Reid%20%26%20Connellan.pdf

This is fantastic, Bradley. Thank you for sharing this!!!

[Ed Oden]

Bart & Ed

Its interesting that you two see the greens at Indian as too similar in style to really carry the course.  This is what I was saying about the green surrounds at Yeamans - a lot of the same type of recovery shots. 

As Whitty points out, many of the great courses in GB&I have downright staid greens, yet there are still recognized as great. I too have found that sometimes a course can slide on this, that or the other because of "over-riding" factors.  Sometimes its a few standout holes.  Sometimes its great conditioning.  Sometimes its superb greens.  Sometimes its great use of features.  Etc. If Indian had better cut lines, would your overall in that opinion of the course be very different?

Ciao

Sean, sorry for the delayed response, I'm just getting back to this.  A few thoughts:

1.  That Yeamans thread was really good (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39421.0.html).  I'm going to bump it with a follow up question in a little bit.

2.  I agree that many "great" GB&I courses have rather mundane greens.  Almost always, those courses rate lower with me than they do with others.  I've stated on several occasions that the greens at County Down are relatively pedestrian in comparison to other courses in the discussion for "Greatest Course in the World" and likely the reason it falls just short in that race in my eyes.  Perhaps I place too much importance on interesting greens and surrounds.  

3.  I doubt my opinion of Indianwood would materially change with better cut lines.  Personally, I don't hold cut lines (or other maintenance choices for that matter) against a course as much as some do.  I see those as easy fixes.  Greens, on the other hand, are not so easy fixes.

4.  Again, I've stated on all my posts on this thread that I like Indianwood a lot.  I was merely responding to Mike on why I don't think it quite hits the high he sees.  It is possible to really like a golf course without thinking that it is among the world's best.  I absolutely LOVE my home course, never tire of playing there even after traveling far and wide to see the world's best and think it is better than any number of very highly ranked courses.  That doesn't mean I'm ignorant to its flaws or that I think it should be listed on any world top 100 list.  

Best wishes,

Ed

[Sean_A]

Ed

Yes, I absolutely know where you are coming from.  I love some courses that aren't even in the conversation for best whatever.  It doesn't much matter I spose.  You probably like Indian fine, but not enough to warrant another trip unless its an issue of convenience or friends etc.  

I think we are on slightly different planets when it comes to cut lines.  To me, cut lines can make all the difference in the world when one plays out of season.  For instance, much of the time, cut lines are just as important as controlled tree growth.  

Ciao

[Ed Oden]

Sean, I wasn't very clear on cut lines.  I agree they can have a huge affect on a course, just like trees.  What I meant is that I can see that adjusting Indianwood's mowing lines would have a positive impact on play.  So if they actually did adjust their lines, while I would praise them for doing so, I doubt that would change my opinion very much since I've already imagined the course in that state.  All the best.

Ed