News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Patrick_Mucci

Promoting slow play
« on: August 27, 2013, 01:48:38 AM »
So, we arrange for the first tee off time of the day at Pebble Beach, 6:40 am.

We arrive a little after 6:00, check in, pay our fees and inform the staff that we are very, very fast players.

The staff looks at us as if to say, "yeah, we've heard that one before".   So my friend says to the Starter and staff, "No, we're serious, we're very fast players". My friend then says, "you know, in all the time I've spent in the Grille room, I've never heard a golfer say, 'I'm a slow golfer'. Everyone says they play fast, but we really are fast". So then my friend asks, " Are you having a 4th join us ?"
The Starter says "yes"
My friend says, "I think I saw him in the Pro Shop renting clubs".  So, we rollout eyes and my friend says to the starter, " I hope he plays fast"

Now, this nice young fellow comes up to the tee and introduces himself.
My friend says, "what's your handicap ?"   He says, "24"

So I say to him, " I don't mean to be impolite or rude, but, we're very fast players and hope that you don't find that unsettling.
We have an 11:00 tee off time at another course and intend to play Pebble in 2:30.
If at any time you feel rushed or uncomfortable, please tell us, and we'll proceed ahead and you can play at your leisure.
He asks me, " do you guys putt ?  I say, "sure, unless it's a gimme, and, we don't stand on formality, if someone's away, but not ready to hit, and another is, we play away.

In addition to having another round scheduled, our desire to be the first to tee off centered around my friend, whose last round at Pebble took him 6:20, and he swore that he would never play Pebble again unless he got the first time out.
Our third, a local, had arranged the first tee time and indicated that we're fast players and wouldn't hold up the field.
We're introduced to the Caddy, Gene, and I say to the Starter, "what, you couldn't find a good caddy at 6:30"
We laugh and introduce ourselves.

So, on the tee we get the customary rules of the day, including the expectation that we should complete the round in 4:30.
We laugh and ask if we can tee off now as it's no longer dark.
We're told, "NO" you have to wait until 6:40.  So,we do.

We all hit good drives and now our newly acquired 4th tees up with a 5-iron and we look at each and think, "oh no, this is going to take forever."
But to our surprise, his backswing is graceful, his left arm, ramrod straight and he hits a great 5-iron right down the middle.
He knocks his next shot on and makes par,and that's when I ask him if he's available for member-guests.

So now we continue and all of us play well until we arrive at the 4th tee.
At the fourth tee, a Marshall, Jim, approaches us.
He's a friendly and delightful fellow.
A fellow who will interact with us on more than a few occasions.

He says, "you know, I've never done this before, but, I'm going to have to ask you to SLOW DOWN.
We say, "what ?"  He says, "you're playing to fast, you've caught up to the maintenance crew and they're upset"
So I say, "tell them one of two things, tell them to maintain faster, or just let us play through.
We really don't care if the bunkers aren't raked or if  the course isn't in pristine condition, we're having fun and playing decently, so it's not a problem for us"

He says, "the 6:50 group isn't in the 2nd fairway yet"
We say, "we really don't care about the 6:50 group.
We tell a few jokes, kid around, and he tells us to play away.
Despite the delay and disruption to our playing rhythm, we all hit good drives and continue.

As we walk up onto the 7th tee, Jim comes over to talk to us again.
He says, "you're really playing too fast.   The 6:50 group hasn't finished # 3 yet.  You'll have to slow down"
We say, "we don't know how to slow down"
He says, "why don't you go back and play the 5th and 6th holes again"
We look at each other and I say, "we really don't want to do that."
So he says, "why don't you play # 7 a few times"
We say, "we don't want to do that either"
So, we tell more jokes and have a good time with Jim until he gives us the all clear, then, we play away.

We're now on # 9 tee when another Marshall pulls up and says, "I heard about you guys, slow down"
Now my friend is incensed and says, I didn't get up at 5:00 am to slow down.  I could have slept another hour.  plus, you're ruining our rhythm"
So, he says, "after this hole, it should be clear sailing". And we hit away.
We get to # 14 green and they're raking the bunkers, so we have to wait.
The 6:50 group isn't on the 6th green yet.

We get to # 17, and there's Jim again.
We B.S., have a few laughs and hit away.

We walk off # 18 in less than 3:20, and, we're annoyed as we were held up for at least 45 minutes and should have played in 2:30, allowing us to run some errands prior to our 11:00 tee time.

So I say to our group, "we should get a refund or a Pro Shop credit.
All agree.
So I first speak to the Starter, a very nice young man who has the look of horror on his face when he sees me..
he asks "what happened ?". obviously assuming that we had a problem and that we had to abort the round.
so i say, "nothing happened, except that we were held up and should have been in 45 minutes ago, and that we want a refund.
He says, "you'll have to speak to the Pro Shop.
So, I go into the Pro-shop and talk to a nice woman behind the counter, who really can't believe what she's hearing.
She tells me that she'll have to talk to her boss.
So, I say that would be nice.

She then locates him and I tell him what happened and that we should get a refund.

I told him that we deliberately asked for the first time of the day and that NO ONE told us that we would be held up if we played at a brisk pace.
I told him that we each paid about $ 500 so that we could enjoy a nice round at Pebble Beach and that we got up at 5:00 am just to do so.

Are you ready ?

He now informs me that they promote and expect play to be in 4:30.

So I say, "why would you promote slow play ?  If you promote and expect the first group to play in 4:30, succeeding groups will cause play to slow down and that's why rounds will take 5:30 and 6:30, and golfers will resent that and the resort won't be able to get as many rounds in.

So, he says, how long did it take you to play ?
I say, "3:20". He says, "that's incredibly fast, no one plays that fast."
I say, " we should have played in 2:30 and at a Garden City Golf Club, you're warned not to take more than 3:30.
So he says, what do you want me to do ?
I say, thinking, that this will never happen, "we want a refund."
He's now "Bambi in the headlights"and not very sympathetic to my request.
He goes on to restate that they promote play in 4:30, so I counter and say, why would you promote such a slow round ?
Why wouldn't you promote 3:30 or 4:00 ?
That once you promote 4:30, by mid day you're at 5:30 and 6:30 and that's one of the reasons that golf isn't growing, it takes to long to play and you're promoting slow play.

My fellow golfers now leap in and tell him that the constant interruptions and delays ruined their rounds.

He's unsympathetic, and do you know why ?
Because they've got every tee time slot filled.

That there are legions who will pay the freight and suffer through rounds of 4:30, 5:30 and 6:30.

When we finished playing our 4th said that he had a good time.
He was a nice fellow, so we invite him to be our 4th for our 11:00 tee time at MPCC, but, he can't make it as he has to be in San Francisco in the afternoon.

I understand the tourist nature of the Monterey Peninsula, and the divergent nature of the golfers playing, but why promote slow play, why not promote loftier goals that will lead to greater enjoyment by more golfers ?

Why schedule tee times where reasonably paced golfers will have to be throttled back

Or, why not start maintenance earlier, like ANGC, and then promote FAST PLAY ?



 

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 02:05:41 AM »
Did your 4th start using the word moron by the end of the round?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 03:49:34 AM »
How appropriate that this thread and one entitled "What are the fastest greens?" appear next to each other this morning.  I wonder if there is any other connection between them?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ben Malach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 06:07:31 AM »
This make no sense. Pebble is a world of its own. If you want to do this at any of the course in St. Andrews the starters and rangers would be more than supportive of your pace and use it as an example for all others to follow.
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 07:41:53 AM »
Fact of the matter is that the green crew needs to do their job, and they've allocated the early morning for that exact purpose.

Slow down and enjoy, and let the crew do their job.

I still regret having my "one and done" at Sand Hills and finishing in about 3 hours.  I realized that I hadn't taken the time to appreciate that world-class golf experience to its fullest extent.  

David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 07:44:49 AM »
I've been to Pebble, though sadly have never played it. However, I suspect:

1. As Pat said, they don't care at all about upsetting any specific group. The course will always be filled...$2,000 walking down the first fairway every ten minutes.

or

2. I wonder if they don't want to promote fast play because they don't want anybody to feel rushed. I'll bet they don't want to have some guy come in after his round and say "I didn't pay $500 to be forced to run around the golf course."

Either one is a bad deal in my book. Like Ben said, St. Andrews would obviously never act like that. But, I suspect if enough people complained like Pat's group did, things might change. To me it's a sad state of affairs that hardly any golfers would complain about being asked to slow down.

Ben Jarvis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 07:49:56 AM »
The only time it's acceptable for groups to be asked to slow down to avoid grounds crew, is if they are the first group in a competition field, whereby the staff are cutting greens and new pin positions.

There is absolutely no excuse in Pat's example, for not allowing them to play through.
Twitter: @BennyJarvis
Instagram: @bennyj08

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 08:03:40 AM »
"As we walk up onto the 7th tee, Jim comes over to talk to us again.
He says, "you're really playing too fast.   The 6:50 group hasn't finished # 3 yet.  You'll have to slow down"
We say, "we don't know how to slow down"
He says, "why don't you go back and play the 5th and 6th holes again"
We look at each other and I say, "we really don't want to do that."
So he says, "why don't you play # 7 a few times"
We say, "we don't want to do that either"

Thanks for that, Pat.

So....my wife and I have the first tee time at Pebble ~ 5 weeks from today.  My thinking is that when we drive up to the 7th tee (we're going to ride rather than fuel some 40+ year old caddie's Opus One addiction....) we'll be at least 30 minutes ahead of the group behind us, and after we play the hole and the green staff are over the hill and moving towards the 8th green, if I bring along some Irn Bru, a half pint of vodka, some scented candles and the Great Hits of the Bay City Rollers on my I Phone, I might just get lucky, with only a few seals and grey whales for company.  Any flaws in that strategy?  I can't see any, except that I might just forget to bring a match........

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 08:07:43 AM »
Patrick,
Regardless of the outcome, I feel certain that the staff has talked about your round more than any other in recent memory.  Great story that doesn't exactly make me want to play Pebble.
 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 08:13:25 AM »
That sucks to have made a special effort to get the first tee time only to be held up by the maintenance crew. It is very difficult to enjoy a round when you have to keep stopping to wait. It is hard to establish rhythm and none of us want to be frustrated when the whole idea is to relax and enjoy ourselves. It is unacceptable to pay that kind of money and have the maintenance crew in your way.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2013, 08:16:05 AM »
Maybe they could just double the size of the crew and get done in time for Pat.  For someone who has been a member of some of the finest private courses in the world I am surprised that Pat doesn't understand the basic tenant of the first time of the day.  It is not at daybreak for a reason, it is late enough to give the grounds crew a reasonable time to prepare the course.  Now we have one group in 10,000 that wants everything changed, and made more expensive, so their playing rhythm isn't interrupted.

Pebble offerred an opportunity to tee off first and play in 3:30.  That is a reasonable expectation for the fee charged.  I am sure that other arrangements could be made for a proper fee beyond the $500 per man.  

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2013, 08:27:38 AM »
I hate to be a killjoy but…

I walked Pebble Beach and spent at least as long taking in the views as the golf holes.

I can’t help feel for the high handicapper. Sounds like a real gent to go along with the speed merchants but I tell you  as someone who’s never played off single figures,  a  2hr 30 min round on a difficult golf course is a forced route march.

(I speak as someone who is a member of clubs where 3 – 3.5hr rounds are expected but not always achieved).

I feel for you and your friend being slowed down but much more for your new ‘friend’ who not surprisingly had a reason not to play another round with you.   And yes the action’s of Pebble Beach Inc. in setting up this situation are not defensible.

There are times when the big world theory of golf is impossible to achieve.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2013, 08:57:09 AM »

How appropriate that this thread and one entitled "What are the fastest greens?" appear next to each other this morning.  I wonder if there is any other connection between them?

Mark,

We played in 3:20 after being held up about 45 minutes at Pebble and in a little over 3:15 at MPCC after being held up briefly at MPCC where the greens were lightning fast.

Slow play has very little to do with conditions.

It's a state of mind that's become a culture.

Only a moron wouldn't know that ;D


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2013, 09:05:01 AM »
Fact of the matter is that the green crew needs to do their job, and they've allocated the early morning for that exact purpose.

Slow down and enjoy, and let the crew do their job.

Dan,

We didn't pay $ 535 to play at an agonizing pace and we didn't get up at 5:00 am to wait on every shot.

Since tee times end in the early afternoon, a good deal of the maintenance could have been done the previous afternoon..

Much of the morning maintenance involved syringing bunker edges.

And, we had an 11:00 tee off at MPCC and errands to run that morning.

How much time do you need to take in world class golf ?

And, it's not as if this was our first time at Pebble Beach, which is a wonderful golf course


I still regret having my "one and done" at Sand Hills and finishing in about 3 hours.  I realized that I hadn't taken the time to appreciate that world-class golf experience to its fullest extent.  

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2013, 09:05:55 AM »

How appropriate that this thread and one entitled "What are the fastest greens?" appear next to each other this morning.  I wonder if there is any other connection between them?

Mark,

We played in 3:20 after being held up about 45 minutes at Pebble and in a little over 3:15 at MPCC after being held up briefly at MPCC where the greens were lightning fast.

Slow play has very little to do with conditions.

It's a state of mind that's become a culture.

Only a moron wouldn't know that ;D


There is lots of truth in both views, I think.  Slow play is overwhelmingly "a state of mind that's become a culture", and no doubt about it.

Patrick, you and your group would be on the extreme end of accomplished golfers, though, and very used to faster green speeds.  I think for MOST golfers extremely fast greens slow play almost inevitably and maybe by a lot.  Putting for most players takes longer than full shots, and more putts equals more time.  Maybe a LOT more.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2013, 09:10:27 AM »
While I agree with Spangles that if one has a train to catch, don't expect to make it by cutting it close with a club in hand.  On the other hand, what is the harm in Mucci playing thru?  Seems like an easy solution was left off the table.  If I were Mucci I would bitch as well.  Its none of anyone else's business if the first group out wants to fly, but I do think for $535 a man that Pebble should make it possible to do so.  Of course, that begs the question - if you had time to bitch why didn't you instead run the "errands"? - tee hee.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2013, 09:10:35 AM »

Rich,

Sounds like a good plan to me

I know that Jim, the Marshall will certainly enjoy that.

Only flaw I see is that you won't be alone.
They'll pair you with two other golfers.

Hopefully, they'll bring matches, but forget their camera.

Otherwise, we'll be watching you on U-Tube

Enjoy


"As we walk up onto the 7th tee, Jim comes over to talk to us again.
He says, "you're really playing too fast.   The 6:50 group hasn't finished # 3 yet.  You'll have to slow down"
We say, "we don't know how to slow down"
He says, "why don't you go back and play the 5th and 6th holes again"
We look at each other and I say, "we really don't want to do that."
So he says, "why don't you play # 7 a few times"
We say, "we don't want to do that either"

Thanks for that, Pat.

So....my wife and I have the first tee time at Pebble ~ 5 weeks from today.  My thinking is that when we drive up to the 7th tee (we're going to ride rather than fuel some 40+ year old caddie's Opus One addiction....) we'll be at least 30 minutes ahead of the group behind us, and after we play the hole and the green staff are over the hill and moving towards the 8th green, if I bring along some Irn Bru, a half pint of vodka, some scented candles and the Great Hits of the Bay City Rollers on my I Phone, I might just get lucky, with only a few seals and grey whales for company.  Any flaws in that strategy?  I can't see any, except that I might just forget to bring a match........

Rich

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2013, 09:12:28 AM »
absolutely classic

thank you Pat
It's all about the golf!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2013, 09:26:37 AM »
A few months ago my buddy and I went out to play on a Tuesday morning at a private club.  We didn't have a tee time and showed up at 8:30.  The pro asked us not to start the back nine until 10 so the maintenance crew could prepare the course for the day.  We played a bit faster and caught the crew on 10 forcing us to wait.  boo hoo.  How dare they not hire enough people and/or not buy enough equipment so that one time in 10 years that I want to play on a Tuesday morning I don't have to adhere to established reasonable rules that work for every other member of my club.

Same thing goes for the weekend now and then.  Why do I have to wait for the start of normal tee times if I feel like playing earlier?  If the first tee time is at 8 then why can't I get out at 6:30?  It's just the maintenance guys and I am a precious member.

I get it now.  I can't tee off at 6:30 because my club promotes slow play.  Thanks Pat.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:29:35 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2013, 09:31:21 AM »
JakaB

You live a wharped life, but of course I know you are a wind-up merchant.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2013, 09:33:59 AM »




Tony,

The other fellow had a delightful day.

He didn't request the earliest tee time of the day by accident.
He wanted to play and be done quickly, not in six and a half hours.

Why do you think Pebble has so many Marshall's ?
They want to speed up everybody's round and try to meet their slow play standard of 4:30.

Pebble is a challenging course, but not one that lends itself to slow play.
If you slice one off the 4th fairway, it's not like you're going to climb down the cliff to retrieve it.

As to the declination to play MPCC, again, he didn't book the earliest tee time by accident.
He had plans for later that morning and afternoon and.......he couldn't have been in better company as we all had a great time with each other.

One of my friends asked, "who runs this place, the Super or management ?

Pebble Beach isn't lacking in budget.
They get $ 2,000 for every foursome, from 6:40 to late afternoon.
That's about $ 12,000 an hour or about $ 100,000 per day.

ANGC begins daily grooming while it's still dark out so that early golfers can play at pace.

Pebble Beach could do the same thing, plus begin grooming after the last tee time.

And, they could promote play in 4:00 or 3:30 rather than 4:30, which devolves into rounds in excess of six (6) hours.

You and other morons may want to sightsee and take 6+ hours to play, I don't and neither do my friends.

Fast play is a state of mind that's been allowed to develop into a well established trench.

And while I'm on a rant, the USGA should be promoting 3:30 rounds.

Failure in achieving lofty goals can still be a noble pursuit.

Gotta run, have an 8:00 tee time and we're hoping to get 54 in today.

 
I hate to be a killjoy but…

I walked Pebble Beach and spent at least as long taking in the views as the golf holes.

I can’t help feel for the high handicapper. Sounds like a real gent to go along with the speed merchants but I tell you  as someone who’s never played off single figures,  a  2hr 30 min round on a difficult golf course is a forced route march.

(I speak as someone who is a member of clubs where 3 – 3.5hr rounds are expected but not always achieved).

I feel for you and your friend being slowed down but much more for your new ‘friend’ who not surprisingly had a reason not to play another round with you.   And yes the action’s of Pebble Beach Inc. in setting up this situation are not defensible.

There are times when the big world theory of golf is impossible to achieve.


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2013, 09:34:13 AM »
Pat, You're right, it's cultural. That culture is, and has been for a long time, dictated by one R.J Harper. Write him a letter. But be aware. These guys are mixed up with Augusta Nat'l. Arnie Palmer, Peter Uberoth, etc. etc...

When I was there in the late '90's, they did do some maintenance the night before.

Btw, If your caddie was an older guy named Gene? That was probably Gene McClure. The grandson of the general who had the Fort Ord courses built. I believe he even has design credit there.

Was that the first time you saw the alterations to the 3rd hole? Thoughts?

« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:39:40 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2013, 09:36:18 AM »
What is infuriating is Pat has me defending Superintendents on a day when we are cart paths only.  It's a simple fact of life that we need to work with the people who work on our courses.  They don't come to our workplace and make us start and stop every function midstream to fit their schedule.  Oh, they do come to my workplace and I have flagmen tell them when they can go through.  I could get so much more done if I could just close the roads.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2013, 09:38:54 AM »
Except they were willing to play ahead of the crew. Why should the company care if some group wants to play on?

p.s. Pat, you're assumption the marshals are there to help pick up pace is in err. They are Ambassadors (there name not mine) and are there to kiss ass. I once was denied to play through a group on 10 tee because they were in the half way house and the 10th hole was open. Quoting the marshal ' We don't go through at Pebble".  ::)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 09:43:33 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Promoting slow play
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2013, 09:49:33 AM »
Except they were willing to play ahead of the crew. Why should the company care if some group wants to play on?

Adam,

It is dangerous.  I have seen plenty of guys take shots when crew members are standing where they would not if it were golfers. Pebble is running a business and their crew has a schedule.  Allowing the first time off a 3:30 window if fiscally responsible.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back