[Garland Bayley]

I played Elk Ridge in Carson, WA last Saturday. This is a property that is built on the side of the Columbia River Gorge. Before there was a golf course there, the rain fell and ran away into the Columbia River. After the course was built (and shaped) there are drains in the golf course, because there are now pockets that would fill with water during rains. Should the architect be sued to reshape and remove the drains so that the course drains naturally?

When I played Bandon Dunes for the first time, I noticed shaping and drains on the first three holes. Immediate turn off. How can these raters keep putting it so high in the rankings? Bandon Trails is twice the course, and of course I won't get much argument on the other two being better either.

[Jon Wiggett]

GJ,

are you sure that the pockets where the water gathers are not catchment soakaways? These are used often in Europe as a way to prevent run off water from going directly into an open water source such as a river or lake.

Jon

[Frank Pont]

How about clients should be sued for unnecessary work (read R&A and TOC) 

[Jeff_Brauer]

It would be hard to win that lawsuit.  There are several theories of drainage, or for that matter, taste, which are so far, not real candidates for lawsuits.  Obviously, I am generally against the idea of suing architects for everything you don't happen to like......

[Jason Thurman]

Only if the bridge architect should be sued for building a home for the troll.

[Jeff Taylor]

The person bringing a suit must show harm. How have you been harmed by the circumstances that you describe?
That Congress allowed environmental groups to have legal standing without experiencing harm is a travesty.

[Bill_McBride]

Remember that in today's highly regulated environment, drainage has been designed to meet a code, reviewed by the appropriate authorities, and permitted prior to construction.   The GCA is not winging this stuff in the field.  If there is potential runoff into a public waterway like the Columbia River, the process will be even more stringent.  

[Garland Bayley]

The harm I was thinking of was the overcharge for work that was unnecessary.

My home course has a stream that runs through it that drains into the Columbia River. I know that our staff makes an effort to make sure chemicals don't get into the stream. Of course, the course was built before the environmental regulations were put into place so the was no need to add drainage to a catchment basin when it was built. So that could be a factor.

However, it looked to me like these drains were there just to allow funky shaping. The unnatural look of the shapes is what brought my attention to the drains.

[Ally Mcintosh]

However, it looked to me like these drains were there just to allow funky shaping. The unnatural look of the shapes is what brought my attention to the drains.

They quite possibly were, Garland.... Surface water catchment basin requirements due solely to aesthetic shaping when natural slope would do the same is a pet hate of mine...

But there may have been other reasons for that shaping and hence those gully pots...

And suing the architect? Really?

[Garland Bayley]

Well, Mucci wanted money back because the course wouldn't play as fast as he wanted to. I think the client might be entitled to money back if the architect padded the bill with unnecessary work. Isn't that how it works for real architects?

[Jeff Taylor]

"The harm I was thinking of was the overcharge for work that was unnecessary. "

Offer and acceptance. Why would you assume that this work was out of scope?

[Mike_Young]

GJ,
Please tell me you are trying to get a rise out of guys and not really serious.      Is there even a lawyer that would take such a lawsuit?

[JMEvensky]

 Is there even a lawyer that would take such a lawsuit?

 Probably more than those who wouldn't.

[jeffwarne]

GJ,
Please tell me you are trying to get a rise out of guys and not really serious.      Is there even a lawyer that would take such a lawsuit?

c'mon Mike,
you don't drain fertilizer,fungicides, and pesticides "naturally" into a river?
I think I've heard it all now that GCAers evaluate courses on which way the water flows as it exits the playing area.....

and yes there are thousands of lawyers who would take such a lawsuit (or ANY lawsuit)

[Garland Bayley]

"The harm I was thinking of was the overcharge for work that was unnecessary. "

Offer and acceptance. Why would you assume that this work was out of scope?

Thanks Jeff,

I assume this is a legal principle that I am ignorant of. As long as the work was detailed in the contract the client would have little if any legal standing at all is what I conclude you are saying.

[Jason Thurman]

Is there even a lawyer that would take such a lawsuit?

Isn't Mucci a lawyer? Or at least a former lawyer?

[Garland Bayley]

...
I think I've heard it all now that GCAers evaluate courses on which way the water flows as it exits the playing area.....
...

Are you telling me that you don't find unnatural shaping that requires that water flow down in to a drain pipe offensive and stupid? I really object to courses where the fairway is a series of bowls with a drain at the bottom, because some architect thought it was cute.

[Mark Pearce]

I think I've heard it all now that GCAers evaluate courses on which way the water flows as it exits the playing area.....

Jeff,

Do you think that drainage should play no part in the evealuation of a course?

[Jason Thurman]

...
I think I've heard it all now that GCAers evaluate courses on which way the water flows as it exits the playing area.....
...

Are you telling me that you don't find unnatural shaping that requires that water flow down in to a drain pipe offensive and stupid? I really object to courses where the fairway is a series of bowls with a drain at the bottom, because some architect thought it was cute.

If we're gonna start suing people for being offensive and stupid, you have much bigger things to worry about than drains in fairways.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I met a distinguished unnamed Greenkeeper who proudly informed me how he had created natural runoffs to the surrounds of the greens on his classic course by removing the "unnecesary" flaring - the original architect was Harry Colt.

Sometimes good shaping has a purpose which can leave small catchment areas - nothing wrong with piping it away.

[Jeff Taylor]

"The harm I was thinking of was the overcharge for work that was unnecessary. "

Offer and acceptance. Why would you assume that this work was out of scope?

Thanks Jeff,

I assume this is a legal principle that I am ignorant of. As long as the work was detailed in the contract the client would have little if any legal standing at all is what I conclude you are saying.

Exactly.
No quibble with your distaste for the feature.

[jeffwarne]

I think I've heard it all now that GCAers evaluate courses on which way the water flows as it exits the playing area.....

Jeff,

Do you think that drainage should play no part in the evealuation of a course?

proper drainage plays a HUGE part in evaluation of a course
quibbling about which direction it should be diverted, not knowing the challenges and restrictions, seems a bit naïve.
a ridge that previously drained into a river, and is now a fertilized, chemically treated fairway cannot be drained directly into that same river

[Sean_A]

God forbid I am sued for doing unnecessary work!  A lot of us would be in deep water!

Ciao

 

[Ed Brzezowski]

You know if the land was fit for it's purpose this would not be a problem,,  sorry someone had to say it. I wonder how MMH is these days. He would be all over this topic.

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