Are bent greens losing status in the South?

[A.G._Crockett]

The newest ultra-dwarfs are much, much better, but unless the club is willing to spend $$$$ with frequent aeration, verticutting, chemicals (sorry, organic types), etc., they are no panacea.

Nothing is a panacea, but there is no way ultradwarf bermuda greens will require as much chemicals (sorry, non-organic Lou) as bentgrass greens do.

As Tony Nysse notes, location (geography, climate) is a key, but even then other factors might be in play.  I've been told that the very upscale Escondido in Horseshoe Bay is going UD, while right across the street, the new Nicklaus private club chose bent.  I doubt that the Snob Factor is driving it.  Maybe people have weighed the pros and cons of each grass type and no large majority preference has been established- some like bent, others UDs.  And perhaps there is some merit to the micro-climate arguments I keep hearing about.        

Lou,
  As that is what it is really coming down to for these clubs that have to choose one grass or the other-"When do you want to have the best putting surfaces with the least amount of disruptance to play?" Summer/Fall-UD or Winter/Spring? Each grass needs to be aerified and/or verticut/topdressed, but when do you want to deal with it? Bentgrasses are going to be a spring and fall aerification. Spring aerification to prepare for summer. Fall aerification to heal from summer. Or 2x aerification on a UD in the summer-May/June and August.  Really boils down to when each courses play is the most and what grass can accommodate it.

Anthony,
Well put.  This is exactly what I was told by an architect buddy who has put in all kinds of greens on his designs.  The maintenance costs, according to him, basically wash.  It's all about when your high traffic season is, and having good greens at that time.

I'd add that it appears to me that bent maintenance plans, at least in my part of the South, have changed dramatically over the past few years and the higher temperatures.  Our super opens up and sands our bent greens virtually every Monday through July and August, and does a couple of additional full aerations as well.  Much, much more labor intensive, but we've had good greens to putt on all summer because of it.

BUT our club is in the process right now of putting in a Champion test green adjacent to the practice area to see how it does.  If it goes well, I would expect to see us convert next summer?  I think our owner may be getting tired of the constant process of repair and member complaints early each week.  Just a guess.

[Anthony_Nysse]

The newest ultra-dwarfs are much, much better, but unless the club is willing to spend $$$$ with frequent aeration, verticutting, chemicals (sorry, organic types), etc., they are no panacea.

Nothing is a panacea, but there is no way ultradwarf bermuda greens will require as much chemicals (sorry, non-organic Lou) as bentgrass greens do.

As Tony Nysse notes, location (geography, climate) is a key, but even then other factors might be in play.  I've been told that the very upscale Escondido in Horseshoe Bay is going UD, while right across the street, the new Nicklaus private club chose bent.  I doubt that the Snob Factor is driving it.  Maybe people have weighed the pros and cons of each grass type and no large majority preference has been established- some like bent, others UDs.  And perhaps there is some merit to the micro-climate arguments I keep hearing about.        

Lou,
  As that is what it is really coming down to for these clubs that have to choose one grass or the other-"When do you want to have the best putting surfaces with the least amount of disruptance to play?" Summer/Fall-UD or Winter/Spring? Each grass needs to be aerified and/or verticut/topdressed, but when do you want to deal with it? Bentgrasses are going to be a spring and fall aerification. Spring aerification to prepare for summer. Fall aerification to heal from summer. Or 2x aerification on a UD in the summer-May/June and August.  Really boils down to when each courses play is the most and what grass can accommodate it.

Anthony,
Well put.  This is exactly what I was told by an architect buddy who has put in all kinds of greens on his designs.  The maintenance costs, according to him, basically wash.  It's all about when your high traffic season is, and having good greens at that time.

I'd add that it appears to me that bent maintenance plans, at least in my part of the South, have changed dramatically over the past few years and the higher temperatures.  Our super opens up and sands our bent greens virtually every Monday through July and August, and does a couple of additional full aerations as well.  Much, much more labor intensive, but we've had good greens to putt on all summer because of it.

BUT our club is in the process right now of putting in a Champion test green adjacent to the practice area to see how it does.  If it goes well, I would expect to see us convert next summer?  I think our owner may be getting tired of the constant process of repair and member complaints early each week.  Just a guess.

AG,
  You're right. Many course with bentgrass are on weekly/biweekly vent schedule. The new aerifiers have made it much easier, quicker and less painful to vent greens. The weekly topdressing allows for the canopy to remain as dry as possible.
  When I was at Colonial, we core aerified greens every 3 weeks int he summer with a very small tine. We also topdressed every Monday year round. A dry turf is easier to manage and keep alive than an wet turf, as Brent commented about.
  We tend to get a little more rain a cloud cover here in August/Sept, so we get on the defensive with our wetting agents and fungicides. We spray for Bermudagrass Decline, algae and also use a wetting agent to pull as much moisture THROUGH the soil. These UDS HATE to be overwatered and the canopy is usually so tight and dense, it's difficult for water to percolate through. It's been a very strange summer for the Southeast. Not a lot of sun, too much rain and not enough warm temperatures. Another few weeks and the temperatures will chance and itll be hard for the bermudagrass to grow even if it was sunny. Bermuda really likes 150 degree days, where the low and the high temp equal 150.

[Bill_McBride]

The newest ultra-dwarfs are much, much better, but unless the club is willing to spend $$$$ with frequent aeration, verticutting, chemicals (sorry, organic types), etc., they are no panacea.

Nothing is a panacea, but there is no way ultradwarf bermuda greens will require as much chemicals (sorry, non-organic Lou) as bentgrass greens do.

As Tony Nysse notes, location (geography, climate) is a key, but even then other factors might be in play.  I've been told that the very upscale Escondido in Horseshoe Bay is going UD, while right across the street, the new Nicklaus private club chose bent.  I doubt that the Snob Factor is driving it.  Maybe people have weighed the pros and cons of each grass type and no large majority preference has been established- some like bent, others UDs.  And perhaps there is some merit to the micro-climate arguments I keep hearing about.        

Lou,
  As that is what it is really coming down to for these clubs that have to choose one grass or the other-"When do you want to have the best putting surfaces with the least amount of disruptance to play?" Summer/Fall-UD or Winter/Spring? Each grass needs to be aerified and/or verticut/topdressed, but when do you want to deal with it? Bentgrasses are going to be a spring and fall aerification. Spring aerification to prepare for summer. Fall aerification to heal from summer. Or 2x aerification on a UD in the summer-May/June and August.  Really boils down to when each courses play is the most and what grass can accommodate it.

Anthony,
Well put.  This is exactly what I was told by an architect buddy who has put in all kinds of greens on his designs.  The maintenance costs, according to him, basically wash.  It's all about when your high traffic season is, and having good greens at that time.

I'd add that it appears to me that bent maintenance plans, at least in my part of the South, have changed dramatically over the past few years and the higher temperatures.  Our super opens up and sands our bent greens virtually every Monday through July and August, and does a couple of additional full aerations as well.  Much, much more labor intensive, but we've had good greens to putt on all summer because of it.

BUT our club is in the process right now of putting in a Champion test green adjacent to the practice area to see how it does.  If it goes well, I would expect to see us convert next summer?  I think our owner may be getting tired of the constant process of repair and member complaints early each week.  Just a guess.

He'll be doing the same with the Champion before long from everything I've heard over the past few years.  Heavy verticutting is apparently required pretty soon.

Tony, you'd love it here in the Panhandle, we've had a summer of 168* days (91+77).  Way too much rain but the greens (TifDwarf) are okay after the nematode scares of the past two years.

[Paul Jones]

In South Louisiana, almost all of the high end clubs are going to Min-Verde (not sure if I spelled that correctly).  It is almost impossible to have Bent in South Louisiana - a couple of clubs tried it, but it was too hard and costly to keep up.  

I cannot think of any club in Louisiana that still has Bent - the best greens are at Squire Creek and the Super post on here sometimes, maybe he can chime in.

[Sean_A]

For the life of me, I don't know why no one thought of green covers back then!

They have used covers in Michigan for donkeys years.  I don't know if its still prevalent.

Ciao

[Greg Holland]

I believe Greg Holland posted recently that several players on tour loved the greens at Sedgefield CC in Greensboro, which hosted the Wyndham.  If I recall correctly, Sedgfield convereted to ultradward bermuda sometime in the last few years.  

The pros did love the greens at Sedgefield -- firm and fast.  Ultradwarfs are terrific here in NC in the summer, but go dormant in the winter (and have to be covered and some paint them, so some of the costs savings is negated).  Bent greens are great 10 months of the year here, but are soft in July and August, although my clubs bemt greens were like lightening this weekend for the club championship.  They have been soft -- mainly because of all the rain we have had this summer (but would be watered a lot even without rain).  We are right on the edge of the climate zone where bermuda thrives.  But, lots of courses around here are switching, including Sedgefield, Starmount, Bryan Park, Mid Pines and soon Quail Hollow to name a few.

[Jerry Kluger]

It was explained to me that one reason for not having bermuda greens at my club is sunlight.  Bermuda needs sunlight and many of our greens have trees around them which are owned by the residents so it would be difficult to remove them to help the greens. The fans can help with the air circulation for the bent grass.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

It was explained to me that one reason for not having bermuda greens at my club is sunlight.  Bermuda needs sunlight and many of our greens have trees around them which are owned by the residents so it would be difficult to remove them to help the greens. The fans can help with the air circulation for the bent grass.  

Jerry,
  I know a club that is considering the witch from bent to UD, but would have to remove 60-70 trees.

[Lou_Duran]

Jerry,
  I know a club that is considering the witch from bent to UD, but would have to remove 60-70 trees.

I was informed by a GCAer this morning that one of our favorite municipals, Texas Star, will be converting from bent to an UD.  A club official verified that after 17 years, the greens were due for a major reconstruction.   They studied various options for over a year, including newer bents and UDs, and finally settled on MiniVerde using the no-till method.  The course is expected to be closed from mid-June to Oct, 2014.  In preparation and to give their customers a preview, the practice green has been converted to MV and will open soon.  Management states that it will not save on operations; the objective of the conversion is to provide more consistent surfaces throughout the year and in the future when water issues may become more critical.  They also understand that the course will played differently, including the loss of some pin positions.  The course has good air flow, probably one of the important reasons why its bent greens have typically compared favorably even with those of high profile private courses in the area.  The plan calls for 1 (one) tree being removed.  

[BCrosby]

I know a club that is considering the witch from bent to UD, but would have to remove 60-70 trees.

Tree removal will almost always accommpany conversion to UD. We took out 200+ trees on our course that was converted. They needed to be removed in any event. I wish we had taken out many more.

Likewise, softening some green contours will also often be necessary.

Replacing older 419 greens surrounds with TifGrand or other newer, tighter Bermuda types is something to consider. Particularly if you want to offer ground approaches to your greens. With UD's in the SE, green complexes can be maintained in warm months with a firmness I did not think was possible.

Bob

[A.G._Crockett]

It was explained to me that one reason for not having bermuda greens at my club is sunlight.  Bermuda needs sunlight and many of our greens have trees around them which are owned by the residents so it would be difficult to remove them to help the greens. The fans can help with the air circulation for the bent grass.  

Jerry,
  I know a club that is considering the witch from bent to UD, but would have to remove 60-70 trees.

This is always humorous to me.  If someone came in at night and removed 70 trees from the golf course, ground the stumps and cleaned up the debris, not one member in a hundred would even know anything had happened.  70 trees is less than 2 trees PER ACRE!  And if it is an environmental question, the club could plant three at a 3 to 1 ratio elsewhere on the course in places that wouldn't inhibit sunlight and air circulation around the greens.

[Anthony_Nysse]

It was explained to me that one reason for not having bermuda greens at my club is sunlight.  Bermuda needs sunlight and many of our greens have trees around them which are owned by the residents so it would be difficult to remove them to help the greens. The fans can help with the air circulation for the bent grass.  

Jerry,
  I know a club that is considering the witch from bent to UD, but would have to remove 60-70 trees.

This is always humorous to me.  If someone came in at night and removed 70 trees from the golf course, ground the stumps and cleaned up the debris, not one member in a hundred would even know anything had happened.  70 trees is less than 2 trees PER ACRE!  And if it is an environmental question, the club could plant three at a 3 to 1 ratio elsewhere on the course in places that wouldn't inhibit sunlight and air circulation around the greens.

In some case, maybe. In this case, where the trees are, their history, size and the way the make for approach sits, people would notice. In fact, it's the reason that it hasn't been done already.

[A.G._Crockett]

It was explained to me that one reason for not having bermuda greens at my club is sunlight.  Bermuda needs sunlight and many of our greens have trees around them which are owned by the residents so it would be difficult to remove them to help the greens. The fans can help with the air circulation for the bent grass.  

Jerry,
  I know a club that is considering the witch from bent to UD, but would have to remove 60-70 trees.

This is always humorous to me.  If someone came in at night and removed 70 trees from the golf course, ground the stumps and cleaned up the debris, not one member in a hundred would even know anything had happened.  70 trees is less than 2 trees PER ACRE!  And if it is an environmental question, the club could plant three at a 3 to 1 ratio elsewhere on the course in places that wouldn't inhibit sunlight and air circulation around the greens.

In some case, maybe. In this case, where the trees are, their history, size and the way the make for approach sits, people would notice. In fact, it's the reason that it hasn't been done already.

I should have noted that; thought of the possibility right after I posted that there are trees on golf courses that are things of beauty and that their absence would be noted and lamented.  Looking at trees and identifying them is one of my favorite things about walking a golf course; I've even pulled off leaves and taken them home to try to identify.

Most tree removal programs, however, don't touch the types of trees you are talking about.  Sounds like this club is in a bind.