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Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2013, 02:49:36 PM »
Slow play is mostly about the player(s) and what they are playing for.

We were able to play The Old Course in just over two hours this summer, in spite of its nasty bunkers and big greens with three-putt potential.  We did so because we were on a mission to play fast, and we didn't grind over every shot and every putt.  The funny thing is, in not doing so, I shot my lowest round of the year -- with 7 clubs in my bag, no less.

In competition it is difficult to be so nonchalant, because it's too easy to second-guess yourself about the putt you missed by being too hasty ... never considering the other putt you made because you didn't overthink it.

Your focus was the key.

Since NOBODY reads a rulebook anymore, not even the first page, their focus isn't on the consideration for others. It's on their own petty little score.

 Mr. Van Sickle must've watched a different Colorado golf club. One that didn't have rules officials with each group.

Absolutely. Well, I'll allow a little time for long grass (no surprise that Tom played a course with an awful lot of short stuff in two hours) but it's ultimately about the players and their lack of consideration and/or awareness.

Case in point, I recently decided to e-mail a number of our members that have frequently been guilty of failing to keep up/call quicker groups through. I was, I thought, very tactful, and simply happened to include one paragraph from the RULES OF GOLF which clarified their responsibilities to others using the course.

The Head Pro and General Manager, faced with one slightly upset punter, asked that I refrain from such action in future. I asked (knowing full well what was coming) what justification the offender had been able to offer for breaching the rules and was told that no one had actually expanded on the issue as the club didn't want to "cause any trouble."

In effect, we have a golf club which prefers that no one mention the rules of the bloody game! And therein I rest my case.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2013, 04:55:16 PM »
IIn fact, I can remember eight putting in a tournament in about three minutes with a teacherous hole locaton and a wavering putting stroke.  Never thought of blaming the architect.

Well, that's a first!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2013, 07:43:46 PM »
Paul, Good on you.

Golf is not an exact science. Under the rules a person could have delay after delay. Provisional after provisional. What is germane is that any specific golfer, or group, that falls behind, makes the effort to catch back up. Few do.

The Usga's comic attempt to raise the issue with "while we're young", was misguided. Entertaining yes, but ultimately shows just how far away from the real world, Far Hills is.  

 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2013, 07:57:42 PM »
IIn fact, I can remember eight putting in a tournament in about three minutes with a teacherous hole locaton and a wavering putting stroke.  Never thought of blaming the architect.

Well, that's a first!

Usually I think of the cup cutter. He has 6000 sq ft to choose from.

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2013, 06:51:36 PM »
I played Colorado GC at the beginning of the summer from the tips in a little over 3 hours (walking) with no one in front or behind me.

Gary Van Sickle isn't taking into account the elevation at all. It's a very walkable course, but there's the necessity of added length (especially given the course's aspirations to host big events) will inevitably increase the amount of time it takes to play a round there.

My biggest disagreement with him came after his last paragraph though:

Quote
This course is the poster child for what not to do to slow golf's decline. High maintenance costs and slow play are built into this design. What golf needs is just the opposite. The speed of greens, the difficulty of the pin positions, the severity of the slopes and the number and deepness of the bunkers are directly related to the pace of play. I'm glad to see the USGA actually acknowledge this with the "While We're Young!" campaign. But there are too many courses like the Colorado Golf Club where the only way to speed up play is with bulldozers. And that's not going to happen.

I wonder, if the Solheim Cup were being played at Oakmont, with incredibly fast, big greens, deep bunkers, and severe slopes, if he would be making similar comments. Because I think he would probably be talking about how great a golf course it is and how refreshing it was to see an event played on a good, strategic design.

Pity.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Andy Shulman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2013, 03:30:09 AM »
(no surprise that Tom played a course with an awful lot of short stuff in two hours)

I was there for the first 59 minutes/nine holes of Tom's two-hour trip around TOC and he and the other Hundred Hole Hikers played just a few weeks before the Women's British Open, so there was plenty of long rough.  By the way, each member of the foursome putted out on every hole.  They played the par-3 8th hole in four minutes.  As someone who likes to play quickly, it was a sight to behold!

As for the Solheim Cuppers and CGC, I can see taking a bit longer than usual to line up some of those putts.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2013, 03:52:46 AM »
I played Colorado GC at the beginning of the summer from the tips in a little over 3 hours (walking) with no one in front or behind me.

Gary Van Sickle isn't taking into account the elevation at all. It's a very walkable course, but there's the necessity of added length (especially given the course's aspirations to host big events) will inevitably increase the amount of time it takes to play a round there.

My biggest disagreement with him came after his last paragraph though:

Quote
This course is the poster child for what not to do to slow golf's decline. High maintenance costs and slow play are built into this design. What golf needs is just the opposite. The speed of greens, the difficulty of the pin positions, the severity of the slopes and the number and deepness of the bunkers are directly related to the pace of play. I'm glad to see the USGA actually acknowledge this with the "While We're Young!" campaign. But there are too many courses like the Colorado Golf Club where the only way to speed up play is with bulldozers. And that's not going to happen.

I wonder, if the Solheim Cup were being played at Oakmont, with incredibly fast, big greens, deep bunkers, and severe slopes, if he would be making similar comments. Because I think he would probably be talking about how great a golf course it is and how refreshing it was to see an event played on a good, strategic design.

Pity.

3 hours as a single?  

While there is no question golfers can slow the game down, in my experience, course condition is a killer.  It can take a group of 3 at my club 30 minutes longer to play in June compared to January.  The players aren't doing anything different except looking for balls in the rough.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2013, 04:04:30 AM »

3 hours as a single?  

While there is no question golfers can slow the game down, in my experience, course condition is a killer.  It can take a group of 3 at my club 30 minutes longer to play in June compared to January.  The players aren't doing anything different except looking for balls in the rough.

Ciao

Sean,
Yes, 3 hours as a single. Usually if I'm unimpeded I can get around in 2 1/2 to 3 hours walking.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2013, 08:29:50 AM »
IIn fact, I can remember eight putting in a tournament in about three minutes with a teacherous hole locaton and a wavering putting stroke.  Never thought of blaming the architect.

Well, that's a first!

Usually I think of the cup cutter. He has 6000 sq ft to choose from.

LOL.  I worked two summers at a golf course, and often drew the cup cutting job because I was a golfer, too.  Most others weren't or weren't serious and made some pretty bad cup cutting errors, even after some basics instruction from the super.  It does make a difference!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2013, 11:02:54 AM »

3 hours as a single?  

While there is no question golfers can slow the game down, in my experience, course condition is a killer.  It can take a group of 3 at my club 30 minutes longer to play in June compared to January.  The players aren't doing anything different except looking for balls in the rough.

Ciao

Sean,
Yes, 3 hours as a single. Usually if I'm unimpeded I can get around in 2 1/2 to 3 hours walking.


3 hours as a single? 

While there is no question golfers can slow the game down, in my experience, course condition is a killer.  It can take a group of 3 at my club 30 minutes longer to play in June compared to January.  The players aren't doing anything different except looking for balls in the rough.

Ciao

Sean,
Yes, 3 hours as a single. Usually if I'm unimpeded I can get around in 2 1/2 to 3 hours walking.

Connor

I assume you are young, fit and impressionable (who else would be a Ducks fan....), and if so, you prove Gary VanSickle's point.  A young geezer like Tom D can walk The Old Course (presumably from the front tees) in 2 hours in a two-ball holeing all putts and a megageezer like me can still walk Dornoch in 2 hours if umimpeded.  It must be course design that makes you complete your single rounds at such a snail's pace.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2013, 12:12:49 PM »
IIn fact, I can remember eight putting in a tournament in about three minutes with a teacherous hole locaton and a wavering putting stroke.  Never thought of blaming the architect.

Well, that's a first!

Usually I think of the cup cutter. He has 6000 sq ft to choose from.

LOL.  I worked two summers at a golf course, and often drew the cup cutting job because I was a golfer, too.  Most others weren't or weren't serious and made some pretty bad cup cutting errors, even after some basics instruction from the super.  It does make a difference!

Jeff,

Therein lies the problem for archies like you who have "grown" in your career and attempt to build more interest in the greens.  At Great Southwest as in any number of other places, the staff assigned to cut cups and set tees seem to be the most inexperienced or hung-over at dawn on weekends.   The result is cups cut on the slope (e.g. #10 right front, #17 middle right) and tees placed with no consideration to the wind, course condition, or pin placement.

No question that architecture, site characteristics, maintenance, and set-up have a large impact, but it is mostly the mindset of the individual and the group.

Tom Ferrell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2013, 12:39:57 PM »
Full rebuttal of the GVS thesis - and example - to come.  But first I'll say he should come to Colorado Golf Club and go out on a weekend morning, where the enforced time is four hours flat and 75% of the rounds are walking.

The right to take virtually unlimited time lining up a putt is the real culprit here. 

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2013, 01:49:28 PM »
Funny I played there with Mike Young and 4 hours was a piece of cake - and I'm wayward and he's a big eater between 9's ;D.

Pre-shot routines
Practice swings
Watching others play too much
Looking for a clearly lost ball
Practice putts, plumb bobbing etc. on greens

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!


It's a cultural problem where players believe "I'm more important than the people waiting for me"
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2013, 02:34:27 PM »
Don't forget being more important than the people you are pushing.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2013, 06:48:27 PM »
I really do wonder how people walk in 2 hours.  I walk most mornings and its almost always 2:20, even if I hit nearly every green.  I would guess a caddie could cut off some time if you didn't have to replace divots, drop off your bag, etc.

I do probably spend at least 10 seconds looking at putts.

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2013, 08:48:29 AM »
Connor

I assume you are young, fit and impressionable (who else would be a Ducks fan....), and if so, you prove Gary VanSickle's point.  A young geezer like Tom D can walk The Old Course (presumably from the front tees) in 2 hours in a two-ball holeing all putts and a megageezer like me can still walk Dornoch in 2 hours if umimpeded.  It must be course design that makes you complete your single rounds at such a snail's pace.

Rich

Rich, had you read my post, you would have realized I blamed my 3 hr round on 2 things:

1. The elevation of the golf course (a little over a mile high) which allows the golf ball to travel 10% further
2. That I was foolish enough to play the 7604 yard tees set up so they can have pro events at said elevation.

I've played a few rounds in 2 hours as a single (and on courses that require carts, in an hour) and certainly can play in 2 hours, but I like to enjoy myself and am not looking at it as a race. Is 2 1/2 hours really that bad? It certainly doesn't help that I'm always playing the back tees, which gives me extra ground to cover and also tends to bring in more trouble throughout the round.

And Rich, if you or Tom come up behind me playing one of your two hour rounds, I'll be happy to let you play through.  ;D
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2013, 10:02:24 AM »
Connor

How far in total did you have to walk back (and then forward again to get level with the previous green) to play off the back tees?  I suspect that (along with the extra 1200 yards from "Normal") would add 20minutes + to your walk.  That's my main issue vis a vis modern courses and slow play.  Of course, the same problem is there at the Old Course, if one wan'ts to (and is allowed to) play off the tips.  I suspect that Tom Doak and Jim Colton played the tees nearest the previous green in order to do the 100 hole challenge without causing death.  Playing the tips there would probably add 20-30 minutes to the round for all but the most accomplished players.  If I wanted to play the furthest back tees at Dornoch I'd probably add 15 minutes to a solo round.

Rich

PS--Go Ducks, except on Nov. 7th.....
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2013, 10:30:36 AM »
I played last weekend with my 61 year old dad and 59 year old mom in 3.5 hours on a course that has some pretty long green to tee walks. I just did the path on Google Earth and walking the 6700 yard course in a straight line is almost 9300 yards!
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2013, 06:24:31 PM »
Connor

How far in total did you have to walk back (and then forward again to get level with the previous green) to play off the back tees?  I suspect that (along with the extra 1200 yards from "Normal") would add 20minutes + to your walk.  That's my main issue vis a vis modern courses and slow play.  Of course, the same problem is there at the Old Course, if one wan'ts to (and is allowed to) play off the tips.  I suspect that Tom Doak and Jim Colton played the tees nearest the previous green in order to do the 100 hole challenge without causing death.  Playing the tips there would probably add 20-30 minutes to the round for all but the most accomplished players.  If I wanted to play the furthest back tees at Dornoch I'd probably add 15 minutes to a solo round.

Rich

PS--Go Ducks, except on Nov. 7th.....

If I had to guess, maybe around something like 800-1000 yards, but that estimate could be way off (there were a few hole with the back tee lined up with the green.

I played okay but not great and shot 81. I also took an assortment of photos (when you're playing by yourself it only slows you down.

And I have my tickets for Nov. 7th and will be making my way home for that game.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slow play: it's the course's fault!
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2013, 07:39:55 PM »
My observation is that pace of play is the product of the culture and expectations of the core of regular players at a given course.  

Some courses, mainly private, have a culture and expectation of fast play, and fast play results.  Other courses, most of which are public, have a slow play culture, or expectation, on the part of regular players, resulting in slow play.

My observation is that the course management and staff plays the major role in establishing the pace of play culture.  They can inform players as to the expectation of faster play and explain what will be done to encourage it (for example: marshals giving friendly warnings and having the authority to ask players to pick up and move to the next tee).  By simple communications that set expectations, backed up with good marshaling practice, the culture can be changed over time.  Every player should be informed and reminded before teeing off, and perhaps given feedback at the turn..

I play two nearly identical municipal courses, five miles apart.  Same design with green-to-tee walks minimal, same difficulty & lost ball hazards, same conditioning.

One course clearly states pace of play expectations and has marshals warn people (and very rarely move a group).  It's not uncommon to get told by the starter at the turn that "nice job - you played that 9 in 1:45", or "2 hours for 9 is pretty slow".   the course plays in less than 4 hours on weekends. Regular players expect that and remind each other.  Tee sheets fill up.

The second course does no communication on pace of play and has marshals that sit in the shade or look for golf balls.  Play there always takes 5 hours or more. When asked, the pro has replied "Nothing we can do.  We hope for 4:30, but someone is always slow." Regulars accept that pace & never hurry as they know they will wait on the next shot.  It’s easy to get a tee time there.
 

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