[Chris_Clouser]

The post the other day where someone mentioned Southern Hills got me to thinking why we don't discuss this course on here more.  We always seem to talk about courses that may be on the same level as it (Bethpage Black) or just a notch below (insert almost any New York or Philly metro course) that I've run across.  Is it because not many here have seen it other than on TV, or is it because of the location, or what else may it be?

Or is it because I'm the only one that seems to think it is that good?  

It has one of the top championship histories (at least in number of championships) in the country.  It has a varied and tough layout.  The greens are among the best in the country and.  Aside from the 5th (from the tips) and perhaps the 7th, I can't think of a hole that isn't worthy of some discussion.  

[David Wigler]

Chris,

Add me to the group that think it is "That Good".  I played it the day after playing Praire Dunes and (Apologies to the two posters who are Praire Dunes members) prefered Southern Hills.  Both courses green complexes were simply brilliant (Maxwell was as good as anyone in history at creating ingenuitive green complexes).  The difference to me was that Southern Hills allowed for creative recovery options where Praire Dunes did not.  I think Southern Hills deserves to be talked about in that second group of courses with Pinehurst, LACC, Bandon and Pacific Dunes, Olympic, Seminole, Muirfield Village, Crystal Downs, etc. (The group of courses that are not in the argument for best in the country but are just behind).

[Jim Franklin]

I thought Southern Hills was a wonderful layout, but the one day I played there, my caddie was lacking to say the least. I won't get into the mistakes he made, but it did effect my overall experience. With that said, I thought it was a tough layout that I would love to play again. I had two birdies that day and they were the only putts my caddie didn't read. I agree that Maxwell allowed for some creative recovery opportunities that you don't see at a lot of places. #18 is one heckuva finishing hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

It seems as though Southern Hills may get left out because not that many people on this site have played it.

It is an interesting golf course, with a great variety of holes.

For Championship purposes, I have heard people comment that it has too many short holes.

But, I found each one distinct, challenging and fun to play.

I would say that it doesn't get the praise it deserves.

[Matt_Ward]

Mr. Hurricane:

"#18 is one heckuva finishing hole."

Really?

I'd be interested what other 18th holes you would rate it ahead of. Equal to? Behind?

Thanks ...

In my mind Southern Hills is the only logical alternative to the hosting of championship events in the South Central region of the USA. When I played the course it was quite hard and the bounce allowed the ball to scamper into some interesting locations. Is the 12th really as great as Hogan suggested? I don't think so.

Clearly, the course has a number of fine holes and the manner by which Maxwell routed the short holes uphill and the long ones downhill is well done. I would have to day that one of the most intimidating tee shots you can play is the 2nd -- talk about grabbing your attention!

David suggests that SH belongs in the second grouping of courses -- I guess he means that SH would be rated anywhere from 11th to 20th. I don't know if I'd go that high --maybe 25th in the USA or right around that point. Nonetheless, playing Southern Hills is indeed a fine test of golf and it does balance / incorporate quite nicely the elements of the long game with precision in a number of instances.

[cdharris]

My impression of Southern Hills is HOT!!  I have a friend who is a member and have played there several times.  Each time was in the summer.  Each time it was over 100, no wind and very humid.  The course was beautiful and in immaculate condition, but so hot it was almost unbearable.  Someday, I want to play it in the spring or fall, when it doesn't take a gallon of ice water per hole to survive.

[texsport]

Mr. Hurricane:

"#18 is one heckuva finishing hole."

Really?

I'd be interested what other 18th holes you would rate it ahead of. Equal to? Behind?

Thanks ...

In my mind Southern Hills is the only logical alternative to the hosting of championship events in the South Central region of the USA. When I played the course it was quite hard and the bounce allowed the ball to scamper into some interesting locations. Is the 12th really as great as Hogan suggested? I don't think so.

Clearly, the course has a number of fine holes and the manner by which Maxwell routed the short holes uphill and the long ones downhill is well done. I would have to day that one of the most intimidating tee shots you can play is the 2nd -- talk about grabbing your attention!

David suggests that SH belongs in the second grouping of courses -- I guess he means that SH would be rated anywhere from 11th to 20th. I don't know if I'd go that high --maybe 25th in the USA or right around that point. Nonetheless, playing Southern Hills is indeed a fine test of golf and it does balance / incorporate quite nicely the elements of the long game with precision in a number of instances.

Any discussion of SH must include the fact that when the course is prepared for tournament play, the greens are frightening. Maxwell's rolling contours combined with modern grasses makes second shot accuracy absolutely vital. Deep Burmuda rough makes recovery shots to the trecherous greens very challenging to say the least.

The green on 18 is a good example. You can drop a ball on the back and watch it roll off the front just like on Augusta's 9th. At SH, this means that you might roll 70 yards down the steep hill fronting the green.

The 18th is the hardest finishing hole I've ever seen. Besides being very long, there is a ditch intruding into the fairway right at the dogleg in the landing area. This must be avoided, often leaving you on the left side with 220 yards, with a down hill lie, to a very elevated green. Remember, you've got to keep your second shot below the hole to have a decent putt. You can make 5 or 6 without hitting anything but pure shots here.

In tournament stup, I'd rate Southern Hills as difficult as Medina.

Texsport

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

Thanks for your input. I take it you don't find #18 a good finishing hole. I rank it better than #18 at WFW, not as good as #18 Pebble Beach. Better than #18 at Cypress Point, better than #18 at Pine Valley, not as good as #18 at Oakmont, better than #18 at Baltusrol(both), not as good as #18 at Sand Hills or Friar's Head, better than #18 at Inverness to name a few. How do you rate it???

[David Wigler]

Mr. Hurricane,

I'm with you on really liking 18.  I must disagree on Inverness though.  I think 18 at Inverness is the greatest short par four closing hole in US golf.  It is true Ross genius (Even with the Art Hills extension to the green that cost it some of its charm).

[Matt_Ward]

Mr. Hurricane:

I'm not a fan of holes that take driver out of your hands --give you an extreme downhill lie (in the fairway) and then force you to hit UPPPPPPPPPPPP to a green (likely 200 yards+) yards) perched dangerously from back to front. Thankfully, the USGA wised up during the '01 Open or all one would have needed was a few wind mills and clowns!

Here's a great example of a hole being tough but not great IMHO.

Conversely, take the 18th at WF / West -- here you have a demanding drive but a fair one. The player must shape the shot and if you decide to bust a driver there's room to land it. You also get a reasonable lie to hit to a demanding green site. The green that can hold shots when hit correctly. Yes, you can three-putt but it's not based on overcooking the green to where four and five putts are possible.

In the circles of championship golf -- I'm leaving out places like Sand Hills, Friar's Head, CP, Bandon, etc, etc, I say the following are beyond the 18th at Southern Hills ...

*In no order of preference ...
18th at Pebble Beach
18th at Shinnecock
18th at Oakmont
18th at Merion
18th at Oak Hill / East
18th at Winged Foot / West
18th at Olympic (when they don't do what SH did)
18th at Inverness
18th at Whistling Straits (if they play from the r-e-a-l blue tees at the '05 PGA)

Not in the great category ...

18th at BB
18th at Augusta National
18th at Baltusrol / Lower
18th at TCC

These are just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure I can provide a few more in both categories ...

[T_MacWood]

An under appreciated golf course that doesn't show well on TV -- interesting green contours and undulating land don't come across well on the tube. Maxwell did a wonderful job of untilizing the interesting movement of the ground, the stream, along with his super greens. A nice variety of very different holes.

Although the trees do not impinge on play, especially compared other courses of that era, I would have to believe the course would be much better without several hundred of them...the old photos show fewer trees. The bunkering is also off....I'm not sure what happened and when, but the bunkering appears to me to be altered. Chris does your research support the bunkering alteration? Also are the ponds on the 13th original?

If the trees were thinned out and Maxwell's bunkering reintroduced, there would never be any questions about this course.

[Jim Franklin]

David -

Don't get me wrong, I love the finishing hole at Inverness. Great short holes are tough to find and that's one of the best. I, however, think a tough par on a finishing hole makes a more exciting hole. Oakmont's new tee on their 18 is awesome. #18 at Pebble is just a great gambling hole which is fairly exciting as well; plus the view isn't too bad either.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

All good choices except I did not like #18 at Olympic as much. I never played Oak Hill so I can't comment and I forgot Merion and Shinnecock.

I hit 3wood/wedge at WFW (granted the tees may not have been all the way back, but that's where they were that day) and I hit driver/6iron at Southern Hills. It's a tough hole and a great one for a US Open IMHO.

[jg7236]

Tom,

You are indeed right about the bunker and pond alterations.  I was a Superintendent working for Landscapes Unlimited on the remodel of Southern Hills C.C. in 1999 for the U.S. Open.  The course was remodeled by Keith Foster.  The ponds on 13 and 16 were demucked/drained and then edged.  All the bunkers had new drainage put in them, some bunkers were altered to look like a Perry Maxwell bunker.  A few of the tees were re-shaped, lengthened, and all had new drainage added to them.  All the greens were also redone to look like a Perry Maxwell green.  We also added some new cart paths and redid some old cartpaths.  If one looks clearly the entire cartpath, the new, the old is all died a light green to blend in with its surrounding, so that the cartpaths don't look like a race track around the golf course.  The die was damn expensive.

Cheers,
John

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I don't know that the 18th at Southern Hills takes the driver out of the hands of the pros, as much as the added distance gained through high tech equipment and improved  golf balls.

We complain all the time about drives that carry 300+ yards, leaving sand-wedges into the greens.  Here is a hole where the configuration of the land and stream have put a cap on driving distance, unless a pro is willing to take his chances.

I think the hole was designed to be played from the plateau or with a gambling tee shot, from the flat neck just short of the creek, to a green elevated far above the driving zone.

The cross bunkering on #'s 9, 10, 13, 15 at GCGC provide the same built in governor, which limits driving distance.

I'd also place # 18 at ANGC as a top finishing hole.
It is a very uncomfortable set-up for many, as they stand on that tee, and the second shot is no bargain either.

It is 300+ yard drives, not the architecture that have hurt many holes and especially finishing holes.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I believe if you review the tape of the '01 Open you will find all of the top guns were keeping the driver in the bag on the hole. I define top guns as Tiger, Phil, et al.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

That is my point.

The architect intended a prefered Landing/Attack Zone.

I don't think he would care about the club chosen to reach it.

Tee lengthening can only go so far on some holes, others are fortunate to have built in governors.  I think # 18 at Southern Hills is one of those holes.

[RobertO4653]

Southern Hills is truly a great test of golf, the fifth hole is fantastic from the very tips as it gives you plenty of options on how to attack the hole, during the championship there were a few that actually reached the green in two. Number 7 allthough short required a strategically placed tee shot and was a good birdie opportunity especially with 8 waiting to absolutely challenge the best of us. 12 is a fantastic hole with a need to be very selective in how to play the second shot. Now for 18 this hole required absolute guts, the only flat spot on the fairway was a spot on the right half of the fairway by the crossing stream. To reach this spot you had to hit a fairly sustantial cut that had to travel 300 yards otherwise you had to deal with the rough on the left side of the fairway or a very downhill lie. Once on the flat spot you had to hit another cut to clear the huge Oak trees on the right to a green that was 30' higher then the fairway.  Both 9 and 18 had to be cut a different heights because of the speed of the greens and false fronts. John the superintendent had them very quick 12 on the stimpmeter. I know alot about this course as my company not only created the digital animations for the open for NBC but I also mapped every square inch of the place to include all 4,126 trees. I also got to play the course (part of the perks). I could get long winded and tell you about every hole but thought I would just end it with; Yes it is a truly great course with great character and worthy of all the acolades we can give it.
Robert Overdorf

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom MacWood,

I'll respond to your question later.  I've got meetings that I'm going to this morning.  But I'll let you know what I've found.

I am some what surprised that most of the thread has centered on the 18th hole.  The 1st provides a beautiful opening shot.  The 2nd is such a wonderful hole with an excellent tee shot.  The 8th is one of the more difficult par threes in golf.  The 12th is supposedly one of the greatest holes in golf.  The 13th is a strong par five with great risk/reward options.  The controversial 16th provides a great debate on the influence of length on the game.  The 17th is one of the great short/mid length par fours in the country.  There are so many really good to great holes there, I'm shocked no one has talked about the other holes more.  

I'll be back though.  I'll see if I can get my notes from my visit and put those in here for others to see and possibly discuss them and whether I'm just an idiot about the place.

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