After playing Yale yesterday I stated that irrespective of your score, Yale

[Patrick Kiser]

Jon Stein thank you! And Mike thank you for doing the heavy lifting on game day.

George, the earliest appearance I've found of those Banks hole descriptions is August 1925.

Pat, many if not most of those construction photos are available online on the Yale golf history project website. I don't have the link handy; perhaps someone can Google and share.

Here ya go.  The story about how these photos were discovered is quite fascinating as well.

https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/index.htm

[Charlie_Bell]

Jim Hoak,

I'm not surprised that the President of Yale brushed you off when you suggested that the course be better maintained.  To be fair, for all the money Yale has in its endowment, it would take a lot more to maintain the golf course at the level it deserves than to accommodate one more fine painting.  Moreover, pouring money into the golf course would be a public relations problem for an institution that has faced challenges and strikes from its students and lowest paid workers.  Finally, if Yale spent the millions needed to do even more restoration and to endow first-class maintenance, there would be plenty of alumni who would object.  

I'm not saying that Yale shouldn't take the plunge, but I am sympathetic to the argument that it's "good enough" as is.  My own employer is a prep school eighty miles to the north, Hotchkiss, with an unspoiled Seth Raynor original 9-hole course.  (It was while building our course that Raynor met Charlie Banks, a long-time English teacher who left the school to join Raynor full time.) Much as we fans of CBM/SR/CB would love to see our course lovingly maintained, the work will be deferred until we can pay faculty and staff a lot more, and offer even more generous financial aid, and so on.  That is, of course, unless a generous visionary with influence somehow persuades the entire community that it's worth the cost to "beautify" the golf course.  That's a long shot here and at Yale as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Hoak,

I'm not surprised that the President of Yale brushed you off when you suggested that the course be better maintained.  

To be fair, for all the money Yale has in its endowment, it would take a lot more to maintain the golf course at the level it deserves than to accommodate one more fine painting.  

Moreover, pouring money into the golf course would be a public relations problem for an institution that has faced challenges and strikes from its students and lowest paid workers.  

Charlie,

I'm afraid that you're seriously misinformed.
Where did you get the notion that the workers on the Green Crew are the lowest paid or even low paid ?


Finally, if Yale spent the millions needed to do even more restoration and to endow first-class maintenance, there would be plenty of alumni who would object.

Where are you coming up with these numbers ?
Millions ?
How did you arrive at this number ?

It won't take millions, or even a million to complete a true restoration.
So, where and how did you come up with that enormous number ?

I'm not saying that Yale shouldn't take the plunge, but I am sympathetic to the argument that it's "good enough" as is.  

There's not a prudent person, who's knowledgeable about golf course conditioning, that would make that statement.
How often do you play Yale ?

My own employer is a prep school eighty miles to the north, Hotchkiss, with an unspoiled Seth Raynor original 9-hole course.  (It was while building our course that Raynor met Charlie Banks, a long-time English teacher who left the school to join Raynor full time.) Much as we fans of CBM/SR/CB would love to see our course lovingly maintained, the work will be deferred until we can pay faculty and staff a lot more, and offer even more generous financial aid, and so on.

And you don't think that Yale, with it's enormous endowment and annual revenues can afford the improvements and restoration ?
You don't think that Yale pays it's faculty an adequate wage for working nine months a year ?  Or even twelve months a year ?

That is, of course, unless a generous visionary with influence somehow persuades the entire community that it's worth the cost to "beautify" the golf course.  That's a long shot here and at Yale as well.

While I would like to see a generous individual/entity step forward, that wouldn't be enough.
Yale would have to agree and commit to the principle of restoration and conditioning, and I'm not so sure that they would.

[George_Bahto]

Jon Stein thank you! And Mike thank you for doing the heavy lifting on game day.

George, the earliest appearance I've found of those Banks hole descriptions is August 1925.

Pat, many if not most of those construction photos are available online on the Yale golf history project website. I don't have the link handy; perhaps someone can Google and share.

Here ya go.  The story about how these photos were discovered is quite fascinating as well.

https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/index.htm

Mark, my bad, I meant 1925.   It was also in that article Banks' verfication, thanking CBM for teaching them his philosophies, also speaking of it being a Raynor design.

Their club history is excellent. Dr. Godley was kind enough to to ask if they could use the my Yale course hole drawings from The Evangelist of Golf in their book.

[George_Bahto]

Yale's. 2nd green.

 Harry Muesel, the old pro who made modifications in the early days, told me he removed two or three spines running thru the second green to "make for more accurate putting".       Never could find out exactly where these spines were located.

I think it was also Harry who filled in the original cross bunker fronting 12 green, the Alps hole. He told me you could just about see the golfer upper torso when he was in it.

I think he also took out a couple of "ripples" from the Biarritz green.

Also, to reiterate info on the old argument of a Biarritz was a single green, Tony Pioppi found information (Yale archives) stated these holes were meant to be single green complexes, again I believe the source was Charlie Banks.

[David Harshbarger]

George,

Having played both Yale and Hotchkiss, I found the spines at Hotchkiss to be more interesting than the greens at Yale.  Is it reasonable to assume that Yale's greens had similarly sharp internal features like seen at Hotchkiss' 2nd, 4th,   6th, and if memory serves 8th?

Dave

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Would the photos from the 1934 Connecticut Open reveal the spines on # 2 ?

David,

Are Hotchkiss's greens the same or similar size as Yale's ?

I think Yale's greens total about 5-6 acres.

[David Harshbarger]

Pat,

Hotchkiss' greens have shrunk, particularly the Short, #5.  By and large though the green pads are large, and seem larger based on the scale of the course as it fits into the campus.  The ridge bisecting 2 is a stunner, and the grassed over bunker coming into 1 has scale similar to if less than Yale 2 or 8.

If what George is saying about Yale's spines being removed for playability, you should check out Hotchkiss for contemporaneous greens with those spinal features.

Dave

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I'll have to do that one day.

I think interesting to unusual putting surfaces contribute to the "fun" aspect.

On the 8th hole, my son had a 153 foot putt (it could have been another 45 feet longer) over a 6-8 foot high mound/bank/shoulder.
He hit what he thought was a good putt that ended up 20 feet short and left of the hole.
Others tried the putt after seeing his putt and all had fun doing so.

Ditto the next green where putting from the bottom of the trough to a back hole location almost took a full swing.

Then, on the 10th hole we all tried various putts to different locations, using the banks/shoulders and ramps to assist us.
It was pure fun

Ditto # 17 green, the double plateau.

The 1st and 12th greens also provided ample repeat play and fun.

Those large greens, with their tiers, undulations and slopes provide infinite variety and fun.

Why wouldn't anyone want to replicate them, other than for  cost ?

[George_Bahto]

George,

Having played both Yale and Hotchkiss, I found the spines at Hotchkiss to be more interesting than the greens at Yale.  Is it reasonable to assume that Yale's greens had similarly sharp internal features like seen at Hotchkiss' 2nd, 4th,   6th, and if memory serves 8th?

Dave

Dave, I agree. Also the Hotchkiss course has had little done to the greens.  ......   Top dressing etc.,

The 4th green is not original. A Hog's Back green, I built it a few years ago when the expansion of the music room encroached too close to the original green. No loss there, the old green was terrible. I think it was a left over from the course there before Raynor built his.

[George_Bahto]

George Bahto,

Would the photos from the 1934 Connecticut Open reveal the spines on # 2 ?
pat , it would be a shot in the dark.

David,

Are Hotchkiss's greens the same or similar size as Yale's ?

I think Yale's greens total about 5-6 acres.

Hotchkiss' green are huge but to the scale of Yale's with a couple exceptions

[Keith Grande]

On the 8th hole, my son had a 153 foot putt (it could have been another 45 feet longer) over a 6-8 foot high mound/bank/shoulder.
He hit what he thought was a good putt that ended up 20 feet short and left of the hole.
Others tried the putt after seeing his putt and all had fun doing so.

Ditto the next green where putting from the bottom of the trough to a back hole location almost took a full swing.

Then, on the 10th hole we all tried various putts to different locations, using the banks/shoulders and ramps to assist us.
It was pure fun

Ditto # 17 green, the double plateau.

The 1st and 12th greens also provided ample repeat play and fun.

Those large greens, with their tiers, undulations and slopes provide infinite variety and fun.

Pat,

Dave Falkner, Tom Dunne, Jon Byron and I were wondering why our round took 5 hours.  Now we know why.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

On the 8th hole, my son had a 153 foot putt (it could have been another 45 feet longer) over a 6-8 foot high mound/bank/shoulder.
He hit what he thought was a good putt that ended up 20 feet short and left of the hole.
Others tried the putt after seeing his putt and all had fun doing so.

Ditto the next green where putting from the bottom of the trough to a back hole location almost took a full swing.

Then, on the 10th hole we all tried various putts to different locations, using the banks/shoulders and ramps to assist us.
It was pure fun

Ditto # 17 green, the double plateau.

The 1st and 12th greens also provided ample repeat play and fun.

Those large greens, with their tiers, undulations and slopes provide infinite variety and fun.

Pat,

Dave Falkner, Tom Dunne, Jon Byron and I were wondering why our round took 5 hours.  Now we know why.  

Keith,

Before we engaged in our many replays we looked behind us to make sure we never held anyone up as we were the first group out.

In looking back, we never saw a soul and thus had more than ample time to experiment to our heart's content.

We thought that maybe your group quit after # 2, played up # 16 after playing # 4, got lost in the woods, fond the challenge daunting or were just plain slow.

Which was it ?  

[David Harshbarger]

George,

Having played both Yale and Hotchkiss, I found the spines at Hotchkiss to be more interesting than the greens at Yale.  Is it reasonable to assume that Yale's greens had similarly sharp internal features like seen at Hotchkiss' 2nd, 4th,   6th, and if memory serves 8th?

Dave

Dave, I agree. Also the Hotchkiss course has had little done to the greens.  ......   Top dressing etc.,

The 4th green is not original. A ho's Back green, I built it a few years ago when the expansion of the music room encroached too close to the original green. No loss there, the old green was terrible. I think it was a left over from the course there before Raynor built his.

George, Jim had mentioned something about that 4th green being yours.  I know because when I raved to him about it he said to was all yours!  To Pat's point that green is also huge, spined, and a ton of fun.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kind words David.  

FYI: Hole #3 has shrunk the most, followed by #5 and then #9.   


Patrick,

Today our 9 greens cover just about one acre of land. When built, around 61,500 sq.ft, a loss of about 15,000 sq. ft. over the past 90 years.

That loss is mainly spread out among 7 greens as our 4th (George's green) is new and our 7th (Banks' green) was relocated in 1931.