After playing Yale yesterday I stated that irrespective of your score, Yale

[Patrick_Mucci]

is really, really, really fun to play.

Then I reflected upon what Tom Doak stated in his thread on Yale.
While I agree with his general assessment, I was puzzled by his statement that it might not appeal to the tastes of developers and golfers.

Yet, the course enjoys in excess of 30,000 rounds per year, and that's in New Haven, CT, not a long seasoned location.

First I want to thank Mike Sweeney, Jon Stein and Mark Bourgeois for putting together a GCA.com event at Yale yesterday.
It was very thoughtful of them and everyone had a great time.

We were also fortunate in that Scott Ramsay addressed the group prior to golf.
Well, almost all of the group.
Mike Sweeney was on the range fine tuning his game when Scott spoke and was gracious enough to field our questions.

What strikes most golfers when introduced to Yale is the unique topography and scale of the place.

But, I think that also misleads or misdirects the golfers focus at the same time.

ie.  On the first hole, the hole was cut in the midpoint of the upper right side plateau.
The approach to that hole location diverts the golfers attention from the entire left, lower portion of that green.
A portion that requires a more heroic and slightly longer carry into the green.

On the 2nd hole, the hole was cut center/right, but, the visual made it look like the hole was  more toward the front of the green.
I won't say it was a benign location, but, it certainly produced a much more comfortable feeling within the golfer, versus a hole cut back left.
A back left hole location would require about 3 more club lengths and a brazen approach over a cavernous bunker.
A really, really deep bunker for those of you morons not familiar with the word cavernous.

So, in the play of the first two holes, I can see how hole location could produce a half a shot to a full shot difference in score.

This theme is repeated, almost universally around the golf course.

What also happens is that golfers tend to focus on the hole location once on the green, with little attention being paid to other hole locations.

With Yale's greens occupying about 5-6 acres, that's alot of greenspace.

Case in point, the 7th hole, the Knoll hole.
Upon close examination, that green, while sloped, has a series of mini-dips/valleys where holes can be located.

And, at Yale, hole locations near the perimeter tend to be ferocious and intimidating.

And yet, while 3 and 4 putts lurk everywhere, along with disaster should the golfer miss the green at an inopportune location, the course is just flat out fun to play..

On the 8th hole, my son had a 153 foot putt, up over about an 8 foot embankment.

Now you could stand there all day and have fun with that putt.

Ditto for the 10th green, the 12th green, the 17th green, the 1st green, the 2nd green, and on and on and on.

The other joy is, you could play 36 a day at Yale, every day, for a year, and probably not have the same hole locations.
The greens are that large and that diverse in character.

So, I have to wonder, why wouldn't you build a course that's challenging, but a real joy to play ?

Is there a more unique par 5 in golf than the 18th hole ?

And, why did CBM/SR wait until the 18th hole to introduce a par 5 ?

If most looked at that terrain today, they'd declare that you couldn't build a golf course on it because it was too dramatic, to unusual, yet, these ODG's in 1925 built one of the great courses in the world.  A course that's played and enjoyed by over 30,000 golfers each year, in New Haven, CT.  So why wouldn't anyone want to build a similar course today.

If you want to have fun, Yale is a perfect course to have fun on.

The one caveat I'd make is that you have to be a decent striker of the ball to really enjoy Yale, from any tees.

I'll continue and add and edit this thread later.

[Bill_McBride]

Isn't 16 a par 5?

[Mark McKeever]

Correct, it is Bill.  Pat must have hit a huge drive and had a wedge into 16, thus thought it was a par 4.


Mark

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think Pat was working off the premise that it may have been a 4 with the original green location short and left...

I had a great day at Yale and am still digesting all that I saw... What an absolutely top drawer collection of greens...

thanks to Mark, Mike and Jon for organizing... And to Mark, Pat and Ryan for being great company on the way round...

More thoughts when I get a better Internet connection next week

[Tim Gavrich]

Pat (and anyone else, really)--

Your comments about the first two hole locations make me wonder something I wonder about all courses with huge greens: to what extent does the person charged with setting the day's hole locations have control over people's day-to-day enjoyment of the course? What principles do/should they use for setting the pins on given days? Is it possible to "overstimulate" the golfer by cutting holes in the "best" (whatever that means) hole locations on a course like Yale?

Were you disappointed by the relatively benign hole locations on the first two holes? What about by comparison to the other 16 hole locations? Do you think more daring/heroic hole locations on the first two holes would have adjusted your experience in a significant way

I'll admit that when I've played Yale and the pin has been on the front section of the 9th green, I've always been a little saddened, even though that shot is stimulating in its own right.

[Mark McKeever]

I remember playing the pin back center on two and absolutely loving the challenge.  I would imagine that feeling would not have been present if the pin was front right.

Mark

[Tom Dunne]

Pat, my take on 1 is that the right shelf hole location is actually more difficult. Yes, the left side means you have to take on the front bunker, but at least you have a great big bowl to throw the ball into. The right side is a smaller target, and you'll see a lot of three-putts from golfers trying to make their way from the bowl back up to the shelf.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Isn't 16 a par 5?


It is now

The green was moved back about 40-60 yards sometime ago

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, my take on 1 is that the right shelf hole location is actually more difficult. Yes, the left side means you have to take on the front bunker, but at least you have a great big bowl to throw the ball into.

While the target green is massive, the left side is larger and has a moderate, at best, Punchbowl configuration, and mostly at the perimeter
Hitting the left tier does not guarantee a two putt

The right side is a smaller target, and you'll see a lot of three-putts from golfers trying to make their way from the bowl back up to the shelf.  

The right side green is only smaller in comparison to the left side green.
It's still a large target/green that presents a fairly benign approach.

With the hole cut on the left side of that green the carry is longer and failure to carry is punished far more than shots hit short to the right side.
And, putting from the upper tier to the lower tier is no easy task, although I think it's easier than putting  lower to upper.

I would think that the left side hole location produces far more doubles than the right side

 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Now I am even more disappointed that I got rained out two weeks ago

[Bill_McBride]

i
Isn't 16 a par 5?


It is now

The green was moved back about 40-60 yards sometime ago

So Yale started out as a par 69?  I think I remember 4 par 3s from my day following your group. 

[Jim Hoak]

Pat, it was good to read your comments on the Yale course.  Thank you.
My only quibble would be with your word "enjoys," as in the course enjoys 30,000 rounds a year.
It is my observation (although maybe a few years out of date) that people are beating the Hell out of the course with over-play, and the University is not taking care of it.  30,000 rounds of golf in a 7-8 month season is way too much, and is the result of underpricing rounds for non-University-related players.  At least a few years ago, when several of us looked at the Course and the ecomomics, we concluded that Yale should be charging substantially more for outside play.  Too many rounds and poor management by the University were hurting the Course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Understanding the summer we've/they've had, conditions were pretty good.

Between all the rain, then the heat, many courses took a hit.

The only evidence I observed in terms of the course taking a beating, were the tees.
They're far to small, given the amount of play and weather.

The Championship tee up on the 18th is a perfect example.
It probably has some shade issues and is very small.
Given that not everyone plays # 18 at 621, still the tee is too small.

Ditto the tee on # 15, which has more of a shade problem.

And there are other issues related to tee space
I did not like the new blue tee or the newer Championship tee on # 13 because they both defeated the playing intent on the hole.
Both were more head on, instead of angled, like the old back tee.
The new back tees present the equivalent of playing the Redan at NGLA from up on the hill 40 or so yards short of the 3rd green.
From those angles it's far more difficult for a golfer to use the contours in the green to direct the ball toward the hole and that defeats the design intent and function of the green

For 30,000+ rounds, you need more teeing area NOT subject to excessive shade, while preserving the intended angles of attack.

Years of neglect aren't easily undone and I think that Scott is on the right path in terms of drainage and conditioning.

The really weird thing about Yale is that they are so protective of the architectural history, integrity and structure of their on-campus buildings and yet, so blasé and careless about the magnificent architectural gem of a golf course in their possession.  You would have thought that they would have jealously protected that architectural asset.   Didn't Banks graduate Yale in 1906 ?

To me, the golf course remains a red headed step-child.
In addition, while the Green Budget is significant, it's divided such that the physical golf course doesn't benefit that much.
And, I don't see that changing.

Yale's return to true glory lies within the generosity and direction of a caring alumnus/alumni, with the University's understanding and consent.

If I or any number of us were in charge and had the funds necessary, Yale would be Top 10 in a heartbeat.

And we owe much of our recognition of Yale's greatness to our old friend, Geoff Childs

[George_Bahto]

Pat and all

Banks wrote a very interesting article about the Yale course a few years after it was built. Remember he was there and helped build the course

He described each hole and in some cases a green in detail.

He spoke of the first hole and green as two styles in one.  A Road hole on the left portion of the green and a Punchbowl style green on the right. A large portion of the Punchbowl green was removed long ago by the long time super who was trying to improve the playability of the course. Much of the rear section of the Pbowl still exists.

The full explanation of the. banks article is in my book. The original article was from the
Yale archives.

We also have near 200 construction pictures of the course.

[Mike Policano]

Pat,

You mentioned how the ODGs built a course like Yale over tough terrain. It was even tougher in the 1920's with the hickories they were using at the time. There are some brutal holes with hickories. Consider that bunkers were feared with hickories. There are some killer bunkers out there for hickories with no bounce.

[Mike Sweeney]

We were also fortunate in that Scott Ramsay addressed the group prior to golf.
Well, almost all of the group.
Mike Sweeney was on the range fine tuning his game when Scott spoke and was gracious enough to field our questions.

So I walk in at the end of Scott's talk and Scott is talking about how during the summer he is able to get students and some "downtown" Yale employees to help him at the golf course. I said to Scott, "Are you telling us that you don't have a staff of 80 like at Pine Valley, Seminole and National here at Yale? So wait are you saying Pat Mucci's comments on GCA are not relevant on GCA.com for 98+% of the golf courses out there "

Somehow at Yale, the range balls were set up for our little group, and somehow the the restaurant stayed open for our group past the normal hours. Somehow Patrick's group was met on the 18th green by yours truly who teed off three groups later.  

Yes, that is right. The Big Irish guy is doing all the work for The Domers from South Bend !!

Truth be told, Jon Stein did most of the work, and Mark and I tagged along. Glad people had fun and in 45 days the course will be in awesome shape during the Fall Collegiate season as it should as a university course.

[Jon Stein]

Thanks Mike.  I'm thrilled everyone at GCA had a great time at the outing on Sunday.  It's great to hear all the positive reactions to Yale by first timers and repeat visitors.  It's truly a special place...

[Jim Hoak]

Pat, per your comment on Yale's on-campus architecture preservation vs. the Yale course--A couple of year's ago, I said to the Yale President, "If Yale were given a Monet painting, it would be treated as a masterpiece in the Yale Museum.  You have a masterpiece in the Yale golf course, and you're not taking care of it."  He brushed me off.

[Patrick Kiser]

Pat and all

Banks wrote a very interesting article about the Yale course a few years after it was built. Remember he was there and helped build the course

He described each hole and in some cases a green in detail.

He spoke of the first hole and green as two styles in one.  A Road hole on the left portion of the green and a Punchbowl style green on the right. A large portion of the Punchbowl green was removed long ago by the long time super who was trying to improve the playability of the course. Much of the rear section of the Pbowl still exists.

The full explanation of the. banks article is in my book. The original article was from the
Yale archives.

We also have near 200 construction pictures of the course.

The 3rd to me looked incredibly good.

Circa 1934...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat and all

Banks wrote a very interesting article about the Yale course a few years after it was built. Remember he was there and helped build the course

He described each hole and in some cases a green in detail.

George,

Scott provided us with Banks's article.

Regarding # 9, it could only be played as Banks described if the green were very hard.

I hit a 3-wood from the Championship tee that hit on the top of the swale and came back down into the swale.

Then, I teed up another ball and hit a choked up driver, very low, which hit the first portion of the green, ran back, then down the gully, then back up and then................ back down into the gully.

Banks indicated that it required a carry of 192 or so.
That had to be prodigious in 1926 with that ball and equipment, so the only conclusion I could draw, based upon my play, was that the green had to be maintained very firm, but, if that was the case, it would make the front hole locations difficult to attack.

Putting through that swale requires a big swing, power, and rock solid contact.

I wonder how it is putting from back to front.

Interestingly enough, scores are LOWER when the hole is cut in the back tier, (for better players)

He spoke of the first hole and green as two styles in one.  A Road hole on the left portion of the green and a Punchbowl style green on the right. A large portion of the Punchbowl green was removed long ago by the long time super who was trying to improve the playability of the course. Much of the rear section of the Pbowl still exists.

The full explanation of the. banks article is in my book. The original article was from the
Yale archives.

We also have near 200 construction pictures of the course.

That has to be an interesting collection to see.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You mentioned how the ODGs built a course like Yale over tough terrain.

It was even tougher in the 1920's with the hickories they were using at the time.

There are some brutal holes with hickories. Consider that bunkers were feared with hickories.
There are some killer bunkers out there for hickories with no bounce.

Mike,

I can't begin to imagine how difficult the course played with hickories.

But again, with the emphasis on match play, you wouldn't care about total score, just beating your opponent on every hole.

What a great, great, great golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Correct, it is Bill.  Pat must have hit a huge drive and had a wedge into 16, thus thought it was a par 4.

Mark,

Actually, I played # 16 from the upper back tee on # 5.

It forced you to shape your tee shot (draw) or run the risk of the woods/swamp on the right.

I believe that it's a better hole from the 5th tee, whereas, on # 13, I think it's a worse hole from the two back blue tees.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jon Stein thank you! And Mike thank you for doing the heavy lifting on game day.

George, the earliest appearance I've found of those Banks hole descriptions is August 1925.

Pat, many if not most of those construction photos are available online on the Yale golf history project website. I don't have the link handy; perhaps someone can Google and share.

[jkinney]

YALE is the course on which I had the privilege of learning the game. The one word I use to describe it is "HEROIC". Scott Ramsey's restoration, while still ongoing, is sensational. The simple act of opening up viewing corridors and thereby enabling the golfer to view the great architecture of past & future holes has resulted in this current revisiting by us all. All CGA members should play it, IMO.

[Joe Bausch]

I've put together a new, smaller, and much better IMHO photo album of Yale based on pictures mostly from an April 2012 visit:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Yale2/