[archie_struthers]

 

Most golf course operators have incredible pressure to make the bunkers perfect , consistent. , FAIR. (Ugh) .   It requires lots of time money and man hours. I'm for bunkers being a little more random , randy and rakish.  

It's been well stated by a few of you that the impeccable maintenance practices benefits the good to expert player far more!  You are so right. With the correct technique and level lies , it is one of the easiest shots in golf , certainly more so than chipping or pitching out of tough rough or tight lies. Just watch the really expert players say "get in the bunker" , it says it all !

[Lou_Duran]

Lou . . Lou ...Lou
Good to see you are following through on the idea of taking these things less seriously.  

I agree bunker maintenence costs are not the biggest problem with the industry and that economic and societal issues have a much greater impact.  Nonetheless, this is a GCA board so I think it is a good topic.

As to your political views, you are of course 75% wrong (other than the supply side piece) but I will need to explain that to you when I return in October.  

Jason, my boy, having taken to heart the Serenity Prayer (God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.), I am trying to be much less serious.  Thus, I have long stopped trying to explain or convince those who can't be.  Having been trained in psychology, I understand being personally invested in an ideal, a sense of who one is (good, caring, generous, smart, etc.) and the nearly impenetrable defense mechanisms built to protect it.  So, next time, just like the last one, we'll talk about all the trivial niceties of golf courses, families (not trivial at all), travel, etc.

But given that you agree that I am right about the supply side- which is the main point of my response to Jon- how can I be 75% wrong?  Put politics aside, can it be argued that less disposable income impacts the amount of golf people play?  Or are you suggesting that golf is an inferior good?  How about Boomers earning 0% on their fixed income investments with prospects of higher taxes and medical costs?  You think that this might have an impact on the demand side?  You might remember that the large supply shortages predicted by the NGF were predicated on this segment being loaded with time and money.  But let's not allow politics to get in the middle of why golf is hurting  Let's instead contemplate whether "perfect" bunkers is A cause.

BTW, I am a decent bunker player who has access to a better than average group of courses.  My up-and-down percentages for the last three years, starting with 2013, are: 26.5, 25.0, 20.4, respectively.

Jeff Brauer,

Your last post is very insightful.  Who knew that even in golf, the customer (as opposed to the architect or the critic) is king.  

  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Archie,

I understand the concept of letting skill shine through....I understand reasonable efforts to hold the penalty to half or one shot rather than three, even if the best players do much better.......but its a never ending battle from what I can see.

My only problem with the concept of fair is that its floating.  Even with raking, then better sands, etc., someone is going to get a less than perfect lie, even if less often.  Will that stop the complaints, or  accelerate them, as in "why does this only happen to ME?!" Probably less complaints if everyone gets a bad bunker lie......

[Jud_T]

Who said golf, or life, is fair?

[JMEvensky]

 Probably less complaints if everyone gets a bad bunker lie......

 And much smaller maintenance budgets.

[Thomas Dai]

Probably less complaints if everyone gets a bad bunker lie......

And much smaller maintenance budgets.

Well said.......and bring back the drop out if you wish, but under penalty, rule.
All the best

[Andrew Buck]

This morning I had one of my better rounds of the year going as I was 4 under with 3 to play and found myself in a greenside sand bunker.  The maintenance crew had just come through, and I had a perfect lie on a fairly easy 10 yard sand shot.  

I couldn't help but think of this thread, and almost nonchalantly thought this shot doesn't present challenge.  

Of course I decelerated a little, caught it thin and sailed it into the long grass behind the green for a double.  I guess I answered the question for me again.  Yes, bunkers are still enough of a challenge to employ strategy and respect.  

Thankfully, I birdied the final 2 and was still able to card a 67 for my best round of this season (unashamed boasting), but unless designing for the tour player, I don't think the architects have to worry that bunkers have lost their strategic value.

[Lou_Duran]

I catch myself thinking of this thread whenever I play now.  Last Sunday, on a course that has held a major, I probably "inspected" 10-15 bunkers and found just one which might have approached "too perfect".  I was in two, with lies ranging from fair to good, and did not get up and down a single time.  So far, since this damn thread came to my attention, I've played two top 500 courses, both which have held PGA Tour events.  Bunker conditions based on my scale, maybe B, B-, and a 0% conversion (0 for 5).  79, 82, definitely not boasting.

[Brent Hutto]

Contrarian and golf-head-case that I am, imagine my dismay upon arriving at my club this weekend to find out that for the first time in a month the rainstorms had held off long enough to allow the maintenance guys to power-rake and groom every single bunker on the course. Maybe not "perfection" but worlds better than the hardpan with washouts we'd been playing the last several weeks.

I had actually gotten up and down a couple of times lately including at least once from a pretty darned bad lie. So now faced with "perfection" I'm thinking "Ooooh, now the pressure's on. Hit one over the green and it's all on me this time".

Not surprisingly I was 0-for-6 or 0-for-7 on the weekend (lost count at some point) and managed to hit one ball over the green and leave another in a bunker to make big numbers. No pressure here!

[archie_struthers]

 

Hey Lou D to improve your bunker play just do what I do, swing it just like your driver. Pick it straight up all arms with no turn , its the perfect bunker swing .

You will improve your conversion percentage dramatically !

[Thomas Dai]

Various stats regarding recovery play are recorded on tour. I wonder what the stats comparison between recovery play at genuine links courses and at inland parkland/heathland courses would indicate?

IMO at a GB&I links, sand bunkers are to be avoided, even to be played away from, they are still genuine hazards as up-n-downs ain't easy, indeed sometimes getting out in one shot is a challenging prospect. At most inland parklands however, even at heathland courses too, up-n-downs are more achievable and getting out isn't normally that tough. This variance is even more the case when it comes to fairway bunkers.

All the best

[Brent Hutto]

The two GB&I courses where I have most bunker experience are Birkdale and Ganton. Birkdale's bunkers are harder to avoid but easier to play from. Ganton's quite the opposite. In six rounds totaling maybe 20 bunker shots I'd say Ganton extracted a cumulative bunker penalty of 25 strokes or more. At Birkdale I may have found as many as 7-8 bunkers in my only round there but they were a mix of one stroke and partial stroke penalties.

I think both types are commendable but watching Birkdale's ball gobblers exert their gravity field as much as 30 yards out into the line of play is spectacular but would be soul crushing if every one were as penal as the shots encoutered at Ganton.

I do consider those the exemplars in my limited experience of the "well bunkered course".

[Garland Bayley]

I hope all of the advocates of perfectly raked bunkers are also advocates of no trees that could possibly come into play anywhere on a golf course. Trees are the most capricious of hazards. Sometimes your ball hits the top of a branch and you get a boost on your shot, sometimes it hits the branch dead on and you suffer negative yardage.

Our club championship ended in a three way tie. My favorite led going into the final hole, but his ball was knocked on his drive into a position where he could not reach the green, while all the others were able to. Given the layout of the hole, the odds of that ball going in that direction were well less that 50%. Two others were able to catch him on that hole. On the second play off hole, his tee shot hit a branch on the left side of the fairway, came straight down and hit a tree root and scampered completely across the fairway on the dog leg right next to the trees there, again preventing him from reaching the green and losing the hole.

So CBM and I say you can take your perfect bunkers and stuff them where the sun don't shine.
 

[Andrew Buck]

I hope all of the advocates of perfectly raked bunkers are also advocates of no trees that could possibly come into play anywhere on a golf course. Trees are the most capricious of hazards. Sometimes your ball hits the top of a branch and you get a boost on your shot, sometimes it hits the branch dead on and you suffer negative yardage.

Our club championship ended in a three way tie. My favorite led going into the final hole, but his ball was knocked on his drive into a position where he could not reach the green, while all the others were able to. Given the layout of the hole, the odds of that ball going in that direction were well less that 50%. Two others were able to catch him on that hole. On the second play off hole, his tee shot hit a branch on the left side of the fairway, came straight down and hit a tree root and scampered completely across the fairway on the dog leg right next to the trees there, again preventing him from reaching the green and losing the hole.

So CBM and I say you can take your perfect bunkers and stuff them where the sun don't shine.
 

I haven't seen anyone advocating perfectly raked bunkers.  I have seen people rejecting the idea that rakes should be removed entirely.  I don't mind if my club decides to only perform maintenance a few times a week, given our budget and amount of play and asks members to rake after they use.  I know some will not rake well, and I might catch a bad lie.

Given that you need a decent base of sand to avoid frequent rainouts in many locations, I just don't think golf becomes a better game if we let every sand trap become a minefield of footprints and splash marks.  That said, I'd love to cut down most of the trees as well. 

[Garland Bayley]

Andrew,

It will be a better game, because people will have to think more before they challenge a bunker. They will have to think more to plan their play to avoid bunkers as they go.

We don't want to just hit shots like on a driving range, with little concern where they end up.

[Thomas Dai]

Andrew,
It will be a better game, because people will have to think more before they challenge a bunker. They will have to think more to plan their play to avoid bunkers as they go. We don't want to just hit shots like on a driving range, with little concern where they end up.

Well said GJB. I would suggest that as manicuring has increased, so the need for thinking has declined, for skill isn't just with the hands and clubs, nor does it depend on how much time you devote to practice, although this helps, for skill also exists in that space between the players ears.
All the best.

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew,

It will be a better game, because people will have to think more before they challenge a bunker. They will have to think more to plan their play to avoid bunkers as they go.

We don't want to just hit shots like on a driving range, with little concern where they end up.

It's clear we just disagree.  I already don't hit shots like I'm on a driving range with little concern and I actively account for bunkers.  I really don't think I'd play the game much different, it would just be a more severe penalty if I missed the place I was trying to avoid.  

I assume you advocate never maintaining bunkers, not just refraining during the round.    

[Andrew Buck]

Andrew,
It will be a better game, because people will have to think more before they challenge a bunker. They will have to think more to plan their play to avoid bunkers as they go. We don't want to just hit shots like on a driving range, with little concern where they end up.

Well said GJB. I would suggest that as manicuring has increased, so the need for thinking has declined, for skill isn't just with the hands and clubs, nor does it depend on how much time you devote to practice, although this helps, for skill also exists in that space between the players ears.
All the best.

Since I'm not quite 40, at what point did courses provide zero maintenance or raking of bunkers, as being suggested should be the norm here? 

[Garland Bayley]

I haven't seen anyone advocating perfectly raked bunkers....

Connor wants them all uniformly raked and he wants relief from divots too. Too capricious for him in stroke play events.
To Connor I say, stop playing that tree infested Eugene Country Club that gives members of this site claustrophobia!

Jeff says it is clear that the players will pay extra for perfect bunkers. To Jeff I say, don't get so .... loose with our money!

That's just from a short browse of some of the thread.

[Andrew Buck]

I haven't seen anyone advocating perfectly raked bunkers....

Connor wants them all uniformly raked and he wants relief from divots too. Too capricious for him in stroke play events.
To Connor I say, stop playing that tree infested Eugene Country Club that gives members of this site claustrophobia!

Jeff says it is clear that the players will pay extra for perfect bunkers. To Jeff I say, don't get so .... loose with our money!

That's just from a short browse of some of the thread.

My bad, I'm with you on that end.  

[Sean_A]

Andrew,

It will be a better game, because people will have to think more before they challenge a bunker. They will have to think more to plan their play to avoid bunkers as they go.

Only if bunkers are far more intelligently placed than we often see.  

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Andrew,

It will be a better game, because people will have to think more before they challenge a bunker. They will have to think more to plan their play to avoid bunkers as they go.

We don't want to just hit shots like on a driving range, with little concern where they end up.

It's clear we just disagree.  I already don't hit shots like I'm on a driving range with little concern and I actively account for bunkers.  I really don't think I'd play the game much different, it would just be a more severe penalty if I missed the place I was trying to avoid.  

I assume you advocate never maintaining bunkers, not just refraining during the round.    

Andrew,

on your next round take note of how much thought you take to avoiding a bunker you take and then how much thought in avoiding a water hazard. When you realise you make more effort to avoid the water hazard then ask yourself why! On another note bunkers like water hazards, trees and deep rough should always receive some maintenance but I do not believe any of them need manicuring.

Sean, you are of course right but only if you consider a bunker to be a hazard. However due to the over manicuring of most of them bunkers are possibly no longer such but rather a consistently, fair playing surface that fulfils an eye candy role.

Jon

Jon

[Andrew Buck]

I really don't need to wait until tomorrow for this experiment.  Of course I give more thought to water.  I also understand why I give more thought to OB than water.  Missing a shot in water is normally a shot and a half penalty, I'm fine with a penalty of bunkers not being as severe.  That said, I still often lay up to them off the tee, or account for them when strategically place.  In fact, I treat them the same if I get to a hole after the maintenance crew "manicured" them as if I get there while rugged prior to maintenance.

I even treat them the same if they have standing water and a drop will leave me plugged.

And I don't think we need exotic sand or manicured bunkers, I just like the idea of rakes to attempt to present the course in similar condition throughout the day. 

[Garland Bayley]

Andrew,

It will be a better game, because people will have to think more before they challenge a bunker. They will have to think more to plan their play to avoid bunkers as they go.

Only if bunkers are far more intelligently placed than we often see.  

Ciao

Touche'

Even a high handicapper like me will want a ball to run into a greenside bunker instead of running just short of it, because it is easier for me to get a good result from the bunker than to have to give the bunker the wide berth I do to be safe when I pitch over it.

Is this what leads some GCAs or GCSs to grow tall grass in front of the bunker so the ball won't run into it?
If so, what sadistic jerks!  

[Andrew Buck]

Even a high handicapper like me will want a ball to run into a greenside bunker instead of running just short of it, because it is easier for me to get a good result from the bunker than to have to give the bunker the wide berth I do to be safe when I pitch over it.

GJ

So you admit you currently strategically play around bunkers, maintained and all, even on a pitch shot?  I guess they are not too perfect to void the strategic value for you.    

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