[John Kavanaugh]

Theoretically it seems like a perfect fit for its intended demo.  Is it?

[Chris Buie]

John how many times have you posted just today? Just about every time I pull up the forum you're on there. It would be one thing if it was a valuable contribution but that is hardly ever the case.
I see you have posted thousand and thousands of times since you were let back on here through Ran's good graces. I know that since then he has asked you nicely not to fill up the forum with your writing. Yet despite his nicely asking you not to post so much you continue to. Your writing is very rarely worthwhile and with the very excessive frequency you continue to post you diminish the quality of the website. I suggest you take a break before you get an involuntary and permanent break like some other incessant posters of low value have.
Good luck.

[John Kavanaugh]

Chris, thanks.  Have you played Liberty National?  It looks like a great place to be a member if you work in the financial district.  I heard parts of an interview today with the developer where he indicated they had made quite a few changes to the course since opening.  I like courses that fit the people who become members.  Never been there myself and wished I had considered visiting on my recent visit to NY.  I have a feeling it may have only been a cab and a boat ride away.

[Jason Thurman]

I see two threads started by John on the first page. He started one of them yesterday evening and it already has three pages of replies. Granted, John probably wrote one page of them himself, but that still makes it pretty relevant.

Personally, I enjoy John's posts. I understand verbal irony, and I often find that while 90% of each post is a load of crap, there's a 10% sliver that sheds light on some of the darkest truths of the human condition. Admittedly, like Liberty National, it's easy for people outside the intended demographic to want to puke when they're exposed to it.

I've only played Liberty National on Tiger Woods. The views really are nice. It's sort of a modern equivalent of East Potomac in DC as far as I can tell. You've got to admire the job they did maintaining the sightlines. You can't see much of anything in DC from East Potomac besides the Washington Monument. Kite and Cupp really refined the medium at Liberty National. I once played a course south of Madison, WI called The Legend at Bergamont, also designed by a US Open winner (Andy North). The course itself was horrible and manufactured with pancake-flat fairways surrounded by mounding and really contrived shelves in the greens, but the homes around the course are so bodacious that it's worth walking around it just to see them. I'd imagine Liberty National is similar, but multiplied by about a million. I think I'd enjoy seeing it in person.

[John Kavanaugh]

 Admittedly, like Liberty National, it's easy for people outside the intended demographic to want to puke when they're exposed to it.

This is what I don't understand. Everyone I play golf with would love to play the course.  From what I understand with 4 million cu yds of dirt brought in for environmental reasons the course had to be manufactured.

[Jason Thurman]

Agreed. There was no way around that part.

The course has a certain audacity to it that's always going to be frowned on around here. GolfClubAtlas.com is the only place I can imagine where a majority of people might consider Apache Stronghold in its current state to be as good as Shadow Creek. Manufacturing is as popular here as it is at the DNC.

And honestly, it looks pretty narrow and ridiculous in spots. But if the goal was to host professional tournaments and maximize the setting around the course as opposed to maximizing the interest of the bounces of the white ball on the property itself, I think they did pretty well. But hell, I'm the same guy who almost played Trump LA at twilight just out of morbid curiosity and because I like the ocean. Maybe I am the target demographic.

[Brad Klein]

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/aug/19/liberty-national-fedex-cup-barclays-playoff/

It's less an assessment than a walk through. As for manufactured, to quote Simon Cowell in year 8 of American Idol when someone accused Adam Lambert of being dramatic, "you might as well as criticize a cow for saying moo." You can forget naturalism when you're reclaiming a dump site. And the renovations have improved it marginally -- not enough to change basic views but enough to make it more enjoyable if you're willing to be entertained at all.

[Dan_Callahan]

I think it's fair to say the folks on here see golf courses very differently than do a majority of typical golfers. I went out to Turning Stone with some friends last weekend, and before going I searched this site for comments about the three courses. By and large, the reviews were pretty negative. But to the three guys I played with, the courses were great. The Fazio course in particular. I think it's entirely possible for a course to get ripped on here yet still be very successful because it fits its intended market. And to be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[Josh Tarble]

Reading Brad's course preview, I instantly thought of this quote from Richard Choi's in his course tour of Crosswater:

This is one VERY easy course for a low handicapper (unless you narrow the fairways and jack up the green to ungodly speed).

But on the other hand, it is a VERY VERY VERY difficult course for a mid to high handicappers.

Looking at the photos and overheads, the courses seem very similar.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have only played LN once and it was the same day as I played Bayonne, which I greatly enjoyed.  I was not crazy about the course at all and didn't think it made a good members course.  I drive it fairly straight but found the long grass more than I care to admit.  Finding the ball was difficult and the round was not very enjoyable at all.  I played with an assistant who struggled to break 80.  I am not certain what they did to the course but I am not sure what they can do to make it more fun to play.

[Jim Hoak]

Josh, if this is an easy course for a low handicapper and a very hard course for a mid-to-high handicapper, do you think that is good?  It seems entirely backwards to me.  Isn't a well-designed course one where it is challenging to low handicappers, but fair and fun (from their tees) for high handicappers?  I have always thought that most people have it backwards in holding high slope rated courses in high regard.  Since the slope is (simplistically) measuring the ratio of the degree of difficulty for a bogie shooter compared to a par shooter, aren't the best courses those with high course ratings from the various tees, but low slopes?
I know you weren't passing judgment on Liberty National with your comment, but I'm curious if it should be praised or damned for its positioning.

[Josh Tarble]

Jim,
I would typically say you are correct, in its totally backwards for how a course should be designed. However, and going back to John's original question, I would dare to say it is a perfect course for its members. This is purely based on stereotypes and guesses, but I'm thinking the rich dudes that belong there love to brag about how hard their course is.  Anyone they bring out will play it, will be impressed with the amenities and will find it is extremely hard. Perfect match. Not necessarily perfect architecture but most courses don't  need to be all things to all people.

[John Kavanaugh]

The weather looks perfect this week in NY for a firm and fast course. Should be a real treat!!! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

If you paid for my membership, I doubt I'd play there very often.

It's not my cup of tea.

But, I haven't played there since the recent modifications

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB,

If you paid for my membership, I doubt I'd play there very often.

It's not my cup of tea.

But, I haven't played there since the recent modifications

Patrick,

Some people do golf, you play it.  I doubt that the course was built with a guy like you in mind. With your available options why would you play anywhere else?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

If you paid for my membership, I doubt I'd play there very often.

It's not my cup of tea.

But, I haven't played there since the recent modifications

Patrick,

Some people do golf, you play it.  

I doubt that the course was built with a guy like you in mind.

I wonder if the course was built, primarily, for golfers.

With your available options why would you play anywhere else?

There are lots of reasons.

One of which is that some courses just seem to fit your eye and your game, and others don't.

Some courses are just too contrived, others more natural.

LN just isn't my cup of tea for a number of reasons and with my druthers, I can think of dozens of courses I'd prefer to play.

Ridgewood
Hackensack
Essex County
The Knoll
Plainfield
Baltusrol Upper
Baltusrol Lower
Canoe Brook North
Canoe Brook South
Essex Fells
Crestmont
Preakness Hills
Mountain Ridge
White Beeches.
Bayonne
Etc., etc..

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

I do not understand NY culture and doubt that I ever will. I do however admire the men and women who sacrifice a life of peace and tranquility to keep the financial engine of the world running. My question to you is, is there another better course close enough to the city for a young turk to close the markets and still have time for 18 holes and drinks with some buddies?  For the person who works, lives and plays hard Liberty National looks like a great fit.

[Steve Lapper]

Patrick,

I do not understand NY culture and doubt that I ever will. I do however admire the men and women who sacrifice a life of peace and tranquility to keep the financial engine of the world running. My question to you is, is there another better course close enough to the city for a young turk to close the markets and still have time for 18 holes and drinks with some buddies?  For the person who works, lives and plays hard Liberty National looks like a great fit.

Jaka,

  One word answer: "Bayonne GC" and by a considerable margin! It's simply a lot more fun and interesting a course to play.

  Like Pat, I'd likely choose others, but haven't played there post their recent round of modifications. Perhaps it is worthy of some reconsideration?


   PS....When LN first opened, they asked a fortune ($500k) to join, handed out honorary memberships to everyone from Phil Mickelson to Rudy Giuliani and Christie Kerr, maybe acquiring <50 paying members before stalling out and having an exit wait list to get out.  The steel and glass uber-modern clubhouse was designed to be as much a clubhouse for the anticipated luxe-housing to follow nearby as it was for golf.  Sushi and sliders carried SoHo-like inflated prices and the place was way more Jordan Belfort than Jay Gatsby.

   The course was brutally difficult to play in any wind and the lost ball concession was likely the only profitable facet of the place.  By the third hole, my playing partner remarked that absent the palm trees and alligators, he thought he was must be in Orlando.

       I did hear recently that they were making offers to groups of members at other clubs to join as a package and receive a significant discount to both initiation and dues. No doubt, it's a tough private club market out there. Hope the Barclays works out positively for the club.

[John Kavanaugh]

There has been a consistent pattern with 90% of all clubs opened in the last 10 years where the gunch has been too thick in the early years of the club.  It could be ignorance, bravado or over spray.  Whatever the excuse it is not make believe and in most cases has been thinned out or cut back over time.  Liberty National has had 4 years since 2009 to get this issue dialed in so I hope to see a very playable much more interesting course this week.  

I'm somewhat tired of courses being judged like movies based on opening night box office.  How many more courses need to suffer the same fate before we recognize this pattern?  Lost balls during the first two years of a course opening is a non issue.

[Josh Bills]

I agree with Steve, Bayonne is a great route and I have played it probably 15 times and always enjoy my time there.  Not a particularly long course though 16 and 17 are brutal, but imo always a pleasant quick round that is walking only.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

Bayonne, just down the road would be the suitable alternative you seek.

As to the rough being too thick, it had to be since everything was imported to give the club the look that it had been there forever, on opening day.

You have to recall the nature of these sites prior to the golf course.

Bayonne recognized the problem and began cutting back and thinning out the year after they opened

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Patrick,

I do not understand NY culture and doubt that I ever will. I do however admire the men and women who sacrifice a life of peace and tranquility to keep the financial engine of the world running. My question to you is, is there another better course close enough to the city for a young turk to close the markets and still have time for 18 holes and drinks with some buddies?  For the person who works, lives and plays hard Liberty National looks like a great fit.

Bayonne would fit that bill.  I have a number of friends who are Thieves -- i mean Masters - of the Universe and their firms have memberships at both Bayonne and LN... to a man they prefer Bayonne.

[Dan_Callahan]

A story on Golf.com about changes since 2009:

http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2013/08/-criticism-by-tiger-other-pros-led-to-liberty-national-changes.html?sct=hp2

[John Percival]

LN's reno is an alarming trend. Many on the discussion have hit it square on. For all the $ and work, they should have done better with the shot values and even more so, with the character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Statue is right there. But it lacks any charm of its own. The course was geared towards the Tour player and was a dredge for the average. Ooops, pardon the 4 million cubic yard pun. Now, the changes will do little for the members, but mollify the Tour. For Chrissake, guys, ur playing for a boat load of cash. Peg it, putt it, and shut the hell up.

[Howard Riefs]

AP article on the criticism in 2009 and the course changes recently made:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/liberty-national-gets-another-shot-but-its-on-players-to-show-some-gratitude/2013/08/20/a5e16d4e-09e7-11e3-89fe-abb4a5067014_story.html

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