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TEPaul

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2003, 11:52:46 PM »
Pat:

Interesting new info. I came across an article today in a November 1913 article in "Golf" by Devereaux Emmett on a review he did in the magazine about Piping Rock and most all its holes. About 5-6 original photos from that time too were in the magazine. He called the course maybe the second best in the country behind NGLA.

The interesting new info:

1. Originally there was a race track around Piping's polo fields (now the practice range) and equestrian facilities doubling in the same space.
2. The Biarritz (#9) did have green space on both sides of the swale. Emmett described it as a green in front of another green divided by a deep swale and said he'd never seen anything like that before!!
3. The alps hole is #15 not #12 as I always thought it was!
4. The knoll hole (#13) had a run-up option right in the middle of the approach--looked something like a ramp! The green had no bunkering around it just a very raised affair with steep fall-offs all around (except for the ramp front). He described the green as looking like a "kopje"!
5. As for #6, he said the strategy was to hit the best drive and brassie one could to get as near the green as possible to hit the necessary short little run-up shot to the severe two tier green!

He also said that Macdonald devoted a lot of design time to Piping Rock with H.J. Whigham! There was no mention at all about Raynor as a designer--matter of fact no mention of Raynor at all--(although of course Macdonald did mention Raynor as a help as an engineer).

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2003, 07:44:46 PM »
TEPaul,

Would you have any way of ascertaining when the club abandoned the front tier and swale as putting surface on
# 9 ?

I would also appreciate it if you could find out the reasons the club chose Pete Dye, and what were the club's intentions in retaining him.

Lastly, why did they take out all of those marvelous bunkers on # 6.

Tom Doak,

I believe that you were involved in the 1985 project.
Can you shed some light on the questions posed above ?

Tom_Doak

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Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2003, 02:58:36 PM »
Patrick,

I did chime in there a few posts back.

I have never seen Dev Emmett's article which TE Paul cited above.  We did have an aerial photo of the course dated 1926 from Nassau County, and the front half of the Biarritz appeared not to have been mowed as green at that time, which is one reason we did not move to "restore" it.  

Actually that photo is one of the main reasons I've always been against "restoring" the full length of Biarritz greens, so it's interesting to hear that it really was part of the green.  At Camargo they did not put a layer of cinders under that area like they did under all of the rest of the greens, so that and the Piping Rock photo made me believe that Macdonald didn't necessarily care about having 50% more green space on the hole just for an occasional ladies' day pin placement.  Maybe I'll need to reconsider my recommendation for Chicago Golf Club in light of this.

Bob Merrill was indeed the green chairman at Piping Rock when we did our work, and when they hired Richard Spears the next spring.  He was particularly impressed the evening he came back from Wall Street by helicopter and saw us out on the 17th green sodding the bank of the bunker using our car headlights!  However, a member named Woody Millen was really the guy in charge of our project on a day-to-day basis.  Tom P, do you know him?

iamafrog2

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2003, 04:11:24 PM »
I would love to hear a discussion comparing piping rock and the Creek I have only played the creek but love it.

TEPaul

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2003, 05:34:39 PM »
TomD:

Yes, I certainly do know Woody Millen (was a very fine player). Matter of fact his Dad (Dr. Millen) was the guy who brought me into this world (maybe he shouldn't have but for some reason he did it anyway!). I remember all those guys from back in those days--the Bostwick brothers (Pete and Jimmy), Robin Geddes, David Kirkland--all of them very fine Met section amateurs! My Dad played most of his golf at Piping Rock when in Long Island and for many many years held the course record of 63. Bob Merrill, as I said above, is the father in law of my oldest friend, both of whom live almost across the street from Piping Rock. Bob Merrill has always been a most effective man, basically working on 8 1/2 cylinders all the time.

As for that Biarritz (#9) I was very surprised to read from Devereaux Emmett that that green once had a front section in greenspace because I always assumed that if there was one Biarritz that definitely never did have front section greenspace it was probably Piping's.

There were a number of reasons I thought that. First, I never met anyone who said Piping's Biarritz did have it or could remember from anyone who said it did. Second, I always felt that one way to tell if a Biarritz may have ever had front section greenspace or was designed for it was to look or try to determine where the side bunkering (which I've always referred to as "coffin" bunkering) started originally! I felt if the "coffin" bunkering along one or both sides started well before the swale it meant it was designed to have front section greenspace and probably once did and if the side bunkering started at the swale then it probably never did have front section greenspace and/or was not designed for it!

But obviously there's not much question now that Piping's biarritz once did have front section greenspace and was designed that way because Emmett described the green this way in that November (or December) 1913 "Golf" magazine;

"The 9th hole had one green behind the other separated by a deep swale, something I've never seen before or heard of"!

So obviously Emmett was there and saw that front section greenspace before Dec 1913.

As to restoring front section greenspace on Biarritzes--I'm all for it if it can be determined it was designed that way. I think it lends the hole and the green some awesome playability and unique strategic ramifications both then and in this day and age. Just the look of an enormous Biarritz with front greenspace is awesome--they tend to look like behemoths and I think that's very cool. I could not get over the look of Creek's biarritz when I saw it last month (this was the hole I hit my first golf shot on). From front to back the green measured 80YARDS!!! That's unbelievable.

For strategy it forces a player to really calculate distance and his club selection to the pin because with most players we're talking a difference in potential clubs on the Creek's biarritz of maybe up to 7-8 clubs!

But if most or many of the original biarritzes did have front section greenspace or were designed for it why was it removed and obsoleted in the front on so many? I have some theories about that. Firstly, that's a ton of green space to mow and maintain and most clubs probably didn't really see or understand the value in that. Second, if the side bunkering did begin well before the swale and extend to the back of the green that makes access and egress on and off that green confusing and problematic for some golfers since one would tend to walk through the bunker instead of all the way around it.

I can see that the side bunkering at Fox Chapel's biarritz started well before the swale (for front section greenspace) but that one side's bunkering before the swale was removed on the side of the walk to the next tee. Why that was done is obvious to me, although I don't agree it should have been done.

But Fox Chapel has now restored front section greenspace and I'd even recommend they restore the front section of that side's "coffin" bunker and intall a grass walkway off the green right at the swale on the side of the next tee.

Mountain Lake has just restored it's front section greenspace. Mike Rewinski has always wondered where the green space started on Westhampton's biarritz and since the side bunkering is still there well before the swale I think it's obvious where it started and front section greenspace should be restored.

How about the way to play a biarritz? I can remember when I was a kid the Scottish pro at Piping--Spence--told all us kids when he took us out on the course for a playing lesson about the "biarritz shot". The idea was to hit the ball real low and get it on the ground early and run it across the fairway in front of the swale and through the swale and up on the green section in the back. Spence hit a couple of those low running shots and said the fun of it was to watch the ball disappear into the big swale and the reappear up the other side onto the back.

Piping's biarritz appears to have had a cross-bunker all across the front of where the front green section began. That would make the play to the front greenspace interesting--ie an aerial shot.

I had fun at Fox Chapel's biarritz with a young guy who works for the Pa Golf Association when we had our Pa Golf Assoc's meeting at Fox Chapel last year. He'd never seen a biarritz before and he also hit the ball a long way. We played the hole from the tips at about 235 yds and before I teed off I told him what that "biarritz shot" was---to hit the ball real low, get the ball on the ground early and run it across the ground in front of the swale, through the swale and up onto the back section. I took a 2 iron and punched it low and hit the perfect "biarritz shot" through the swale to the back. This young man said that was an odd shot and took out his 4 iron and flew the ball real high landing about 30 yards past where my low 2 iron hit the ground. Only trouble was although he flew the ball about 30 yds past my shot he landed directly into the upslope of the swale and it spun back into the middle of the swale.

So I got to legitimately tell him;

"When it comes to playing golf shots on this old architecture you young bucks ought to listen to some of us old dogs more often!"




TEPaul

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2003, 05:38:20 PM »
iamafrog2:

Personally, from the look of it alone I think the biarritz at the Creek is even cooler than the biarritz at Piping. Front section green space at Creek and none at Piping--not yet anyway!!

Plus I think you'd feel much more at home at the Creek's biarritz because the whole green is surrounded by water and there're plenty of frogs in that water surrounding that green!

bernard darwin

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2003, 05:52:02 PM »
From Jeff Silverman's Bernard Darwin on Golf, the chapter entitled A Second Visit to America:

"We landed in the middle of what I call a heat wave. Whether it was legitimately entitled to be so called, I am not sure...looking back I think we made a mistake not going at once to Southampton and playing tranquilly amid the sea breezes at the National Golf Links. (T)he prospect of staying in New York for a few days was very tempting. ... We played on different courses round New York - the Links Club, Piping Rock, Westchester-Biltmore, Oakland and Lido....Lido struck me on the whole as the most difficult course I had ever seen."

What a wonderful trip! At least Piping Rock is still here to enjoy.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2003, 05:55:55 PM »
TEPaul,

Do you think that the swale was mowed as green ?

The article you quoted seems to reference two seperate greens, not one continuous green.

I think you may be correct, that maintainance costs and a lack of understanding may have led to the demise of the front section and swale being maintained as green.

TEPaul

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2003, 11:42:22 PM »
Yes, I think the swale was mowed as green in 1913 when Emmett saw the hole. I'll have to check the article again but I also recall that Emmett mentioned that Macdonald was certainly the most imaginative of the architects of that day. It's also interesting that Emmett gave Macdonald credit for spending so much time and effort on Piping Rock. And it's interesting that Emmett also credits collaboration on the course to Whigam and he does not mention Raynor. It would seem to ring true as Emmett did know Macdonald and wrote the article shortly after the course was completed.

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2003, 12:05:54 AM »
FYI--
Piping Rock had the largest improvment in the latest Golf Magazine rankings - a whopping 31 spots from 93rd to 62nd! :o
« Last Edit: August 09, 2003, 12:09:35 AM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2003, 10:20:29 AM »
Mike,

It may be a product of discovery.

Piping Rock is a bit off the beaten path and many people, even in the Metropolitan area have never heard of it.
Perhaps, it is a true hidden gem.

TEPaul,

Did Devereux Emmet and Seth Raynor get along.

I know you're aware of MacDonald's conflict with the polo interests at Piping Rock.  Legend has it that he stormed off, leaving Raynor to complete the project.  If that is true, it would be hard to imagine leaving Raynor out.  In light of the time, 1909, it's hard to imagine leaving Raynor out.

Perhaps there was a personality conflict between the two, or perhaps Emmet was such a fan of MacDonald that he diminished Raynor's role, to glorify MacDonald.

I'd be interested in what you can discover.

TEPaul

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2003, 02:48:42 PM »
"TEPaul,
Did Devereux Emmet and Seth Raynor get along.

I know you're aware of MacDonald's conflict with the polo interests at Piping Rock.  Legend has it that he stormed off, leaving Raynor to complete the project.  If that is true, it would be hard to imagine leaving Raynor out.  In light of the time, 1909, it's hard to imagine leaving Raynor out.

Perhaps there was a personality conflict between the two, or perhaps Emmet was such a fan of MacDonald that he diminished Raynor's role, to glorify MacDonald.

I'd be interested in what you can discover."

Pat:

I have no idea what Emmett thought of Raynor but I can't imagine why he wouldn't have liked him. Apparently Raynor, according to Macdonald was a well mannered man who was extremely professional in his engineering capacity with Macdonald and also a very quick study on architecture for a man who did not play golf (all again according to Macdonald).

Emmett was certainly a friend and former collaborator with Macdonald on NGLA as you'll see on p. 178 of "Scotland's Gift Golf" (again a beautiful book you kindly gave to me).

I'm aware of the story of the clash between Macdonald and the Piping Rock polo interests and that that story maintains that Macdonald stormed off of the project early and left it to Raynor but Emmett's article just following the completion of Piping Rock certainly indicates otherwise. Emmett did mention that the course was completed rather quickly.

Emmett briefly describes some of the holes of Piping including the 6th. It seems he describes that one as a bit of a "shot testing" hole as he says the way to play it is to hit your best drive and best brassie to get close enough to it to play a run-in shot due to the severity of the green surface.

Piping appears to have a voluminous library on golf and perhaps architectural matters and perhaps I can get into it one of these days and find some facts on the construction of the course.  

SPDB

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Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2003, 10:27:59 AM »
Pat - how come there is no discussion in your post of the recent work being done to expand the green on #6. I only played it once this summer, but there appeared to be some considerable work being undertaken on that green. All of it was focuse on the front left, which I believe was being taken out another few feet.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2003, 11:26:39 AM »
SPDB,

There was no evidence of any work on the 6th green when we played there and Rick Spears, who followed us around for a few holes never mentioned any work in progress or planned.

We did discuss the removal of the fairway bunkers on # 6, and I believe the recapturing of additional green areas lost through shrinkage, but nothing about the 6th green, which needs very little in the way of improvement.

P.S.

The next time I'm in the neighborhood, I'm going to look at the 5th green at The Creek, from the drive zone.  Other than one specimen tree, that appeared to be a skyline green to me.

I will pay off on Merion if none of the heads are marked.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2003, 11:57:13 AM »
After seeing Piping Rock this spring, I too am smitten with the course, especially the looks of the Redan and the Eden, as well as vast meadow like feel of the place. Pretty cool stuff.

I have to thank Tom For this too, having him there as the tour guide is an experience. Lots of great old stories and you  can't help but love his oldest friend, A. County Gray. One of the funniest individuals that has walked this planet. Where most would moan and point at a calendar and say, "look how many days I'm going to have to work this month!" and you would see a calender covered in "X's" signifying all of the days, County responds, "Those are all of my vacation days!" with a great huge smile!

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2003, 10:16:14 AM »
Pat - was there on Sat. still no markers on the sprinkler head.

Also, played with a top SEC (conf., not the bureaucracy), who had shot a 69 at Pine Valley the day before. He added 10 shots to that tally at Merion and we didn't play all of the way back tees. The course has still got it. Its demise is, to quote Sammy Clemens, greatly exaggerated.

Also, maybe we can get Scott to post the aerial of the Creek so we can set aside the other bet.

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2003, 10:32:15 AM »
Here is the aerial of The Creek, which was ATOD #92:



and an updated pic of #6 (wait a few seconds):



and #5:



Sean,

I sent you an IM a few days ago.

SPDB

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Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2003, 12:21:32 PM »
Ahh, there we have it. Just as I said. The only way the 5th at the Creek is a skyline is if you rope hook your tee shot left and short of the tennis courts. In which case that specimen tree you referenced would be the only visual on the horizon line. However if you hit in the fairway, you will see a very large stand of trees framing the entire rear of the green.

pay up pat   ;D ;D ;D

Thanks, scott.

Sebonac

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2003, 01:02:29 PM »
It is my understanding that holes 4 and 5 were not part of the original design....They were added later as the club lost some property elsewhere...Can someone confirm that this is the case....because these two holes do seem quite different than all of the rest....

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2003, 03:06:57 PM »
SPDB,

You will note, one tree, standing tall behind the 5th green.
As you know, the land falls off precipitously, from the 6th tee, and from the left side of the fairway, the 5th green is a skyline green.

You should also know that aerials aren't going to reveal elevation changes too well.

While I'm willing to pay up on Merion, I may get even with The Creek.  I'm going to try to get there before November 1st, and get ground level photos to confirm one of our positions.

Sebonic,

I had the same feeling, playing those holes.
Somehow, they seemed to give off a different vibe.
I'd be curious to know if they were original or added as well.

How long is the walk from # 3 green to # 6 tee ?

SPDB

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Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2003, 03:21:43 PM »
Pat -
By all means please do. I stand by my analysis, which is confirmed by the aerial. The only way that the green becomes a skyline is if you are playing from
a) in front of the tennis courts
or
b) the tennis courts

Any other place (e.g. the fairway), there is no skyline effect. In fact this is enhanced by the fact that the green orientation is diagonal from right to left toward the trees

Sebonac/Pat -
It would be hard to believe 4 and 5 are new given that 4 is a (not very impressive) Eden, one of CBM/SR's trademarks.

I can imagine that 4 might have been reoriented by an expansion of the driveway. Pat - maybe you were thinking of 5 green before the alleged redesign?  ;D ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2003, 07:27:52 PM »
SPDB,

I was referencing Piping Rock, not The Creek.

I'm fairly certain, that the look from the left side of the 5th fairway presents a skyline green, save for one backround tree.

Hopefully, a ground level photo can clear this up and even the bet, or put me down two dinners.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2012, 03:45:36 PM »
Pat et al, it seems 6 at PRC is ever-changing.  Maybe someone could post an old aerial, but for comparison here are some aerials from 1966, 1994, 2003 and 2012.

Notable changes:

1) A large-scale bunker in the left-side of the DZ was eliminated between 1966 and 1994. In 2011/2012 a series of 3 bunkers were added slightly farther up the fairway on the LHS.

2) A bunker on the RHS of the DZ was added between 1966 and 1994 (let's guess 1985  :)).  Scale has since been reduced.

3) Cross-bunkers running diagonally across the fairway have been made less-intrusive.

4) Bunker protecting RHS of lay-up area added between 1966 and 1994 (let's guess 1985 again).

5) THE MOST NOTABLE CHANGE, between 1994 and 2003 the green was expanded by at least 1/3 at the front, and in 2003 several feet were added to the front-left portion of the green.








Ronald Montesano

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Re: Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2012, 02:34:52 PM »
All I can say is, thank God for TO and MS. I was beginning to question whether anyone had images for those of us with membership in the linguistically-impaired.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dean DiBerardino

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Re: Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2012, 03:24:31 PM »
Maybe someone could post an old aerial, but for comparison here are some aerials from 1966, 1994, 2003 and 2012.

Mark:

Below is an aerial from December of 1953. Looks like a few changes were made from 1953 to 1966 as well....

« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 03:39:25 PM by Dean DiBerardino »