Is the 6th at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the 6th hole at Piping Rock one of the great par 5's in golf ?

Would it be an even better par 5 if the bunkers in the driving zone had been left intact ?

Did Pete Dye err by taking out the fairway bunkers in the driving zone ?

Is that two tiered greens one of the best par 5 greens in golf ?

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Would you describe the hole in some architectural detail so that those of us that know nothing of the hole or course can understand why you ask this question?  Please tell us why you think the hole is one of the greats along with your description.  Thanks.  

Sorry you couldn't make it down to Philly on Thursday, it was an interesting and fun day.  I hope you will do so sometime soon.

Regards,
Wayne

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

There are a few reasons.

Tangentially, the views from the hole are spectacular, if you like that sort of thing  

The hole traverses two-three rolling ridges with your drive over the first plateau to a mini valley, extensive bunkers used to flank both sides of the fairway.   The second shot is over the next plateau and in the valley are some cross bunkers which must be carried.  But, it is the third shot that is so spectacular, to a huge green, well bunkered with a very elevated rear plateau.  This is the shot to the third of the rolling plateaus.

The catalyst that elevates the hole from a very good par 5 to a great par 5 is...... The WIND.  Sitting just off the north shore, good breezes are almost constant.  It was in our face the day we played the golf course.

There is nothing flashy or gimmickie about the hole, it looks simple, but, depending on your drive, you're faced with choices on your second shot, which result in choices for your third or fourth shot.

If the flagstick is on the upper tier, your choices multiply.

In the morning I hit an 8-iron uphill into a breeze from about
110 to the center, 130 to the flag on the upper.  In the afternoon, from about 60 yards, I hit a punch and run 8-iron into the lower which ran up to the flag on the upper.

Like # 7 at NGLA I think you could sit out in the fairway and devise a myriad of approach shots.

There is something both sporty and challenging about the hole.

I feel that a mistake was made when Pete Dye removed the fairway bunkering complexes in the drive zone, that would have made the hole spectacular.

[mark chalfant]

Patrick,  6 is really well designed  I love the vista from the tee.
the hole is very strategic and flows very gracefully across that
corner  of the  property   IMO one of the best in the met area...yes.

best in golf probably not   .... for that I would nominate two by Langford,

Wakonda  13
Lawsonia  13
U of  Michigan  3  (mackenzie)
Forsgate   8          (banks)
French Creek 6    (hanse)

 Mark.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I never said best, I said, one of the great par 5's in golf.

How do you feel about restoring the fairway bunkers on that hole ?

[Ran Morrissett]

Even though many of the world's finest par fives are found on Long Island (4 at Bethpage, the set of ones at Friar's Head and Shinnecock Hills, etc.), the 6th at Piping Rock holds its head high.

In fact, how many better three shotters did Macdonald and Raynor ever design? The 7th and 18th at NGLA perhaps followed by .... maybe the 15th at Shoreacres....none at Chicago GC...none at Mid-Ocean....none at Camargo...none at Fishers....maybe 18 at Yale depending on your mood...

Pat, as you say the routing over the rolling topography is perfect and I don't know anything about Dye changing the bunker scheme. Still, the green with that abrupt back plateau ringed by deep bunkers makes the hole.

Rich Spear told me that the back hole locations increase the stroke average of the hole by an entire stroke (!) , which is unheard of for that amount of rise in difficulty for something that isn't hokey.

As people have lost the ability to play the run up and as top players seem to spin their wedges to such a high degree, I suppose that back plateau looks tiny and simply gives players fits. A wonderful green complex that even downwind would make the best think twice before just blasting away.

Cheers,

PS The 17th at Auckland GC is a reachable par five with a similar tier that, as you might guess, is controversial with the pros. Still, it is a very fun swing hole to watch in a tournament.

[Craig Disher]

Even though the elevation changes can't be seen in this aerial (1940), the bunker scheme looks challenging on its own. I don't have a current aerial - has the bunkering changed?

[Patrick_Mucci]

CDisher,

Thanks for the terrific aerial.

If you look closely at the green, you can see the substantial slope seperating the tiers.

The hole climbs uphill, although the tee shot appears to be downhill.

Unfortunately, the left side fairway bunkers are gone, as is the bunker off the tee

Ran,

The only reason that I believe that I hit a good 3rd shot into the green the first time I played the hole is not knowing the difficulty of what I was being confronted with, and an excellent caddy.

After playing and studying the green, I thought that the pin location was worth a half stroke to a full stroke, with the wind determining the number.

What I really enjoyed was the two shots I played to the same location, one flying it right at the pin and the other a punch and run onto the lower level, running to the upper level.

I believe the hole is 527 from the back tee, but it played longer uphill and into the wind.

It was such a simple, yet complex hole.  I loved it.  It is one of those holes that you can play for your entire life and never tire of it.

My question is, why did Pete Dye remove the bunkers ?
The hole was spectacular with them.
Perhaps Tom Doak knows the answer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm surprised that after CDIsher posted the aerial, that more people didn't comment on what a terrific looking and strategic par 5 this is.

So, I've brought it up again.

[Craig Disher]

Patrick,
Where is the tee located? To the front right of the redan? If so, very clever - a great view of the shots into the 3rd.

Does the green slope in a way to favor an approach from one side of the fairway?

[JSlonis]

This is indeed a great par 5.  The old aerial looks much different from what is there now.  I had the chance to play Piping Rock in last years MET Am and I recall a large bunker on the right in the driving area that you could challenge off the tee in order to get home in two.  I believe we played this hole with a left to right cross wind and the green was very reachable in two.

The green is fantastic, I did not play it when the hole was located on the back tier, but I do recall that after the morning round, the Met officials had to move the hole closer to the middle of the green because the original hole location toward the front right was too difficult.  Players were having trouble keeping the ball on that part of the green.

[TEPaul]

I grew up at Piping Rock and never thought #6 was that interesting but that was well before I got interested in golf course architecture. Of course that green was very interesting even to a young kid and a novice.

Want to know which holes at Piping Rock were interesting to a young kid and complete novice in architecture? Here're the holes that interested and impressed me back then.

#3--the Redan
#9--the Biarritz
#12--the Alps hole
#13--the Knoll
#15--the Bell hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

CDisher,

Any chance you could post the rest of the golf course based on that 1940 aerial ?

The tee on # 6 affords a nice view of # 3 and the green as well as a view of the 5th green and the vast expanse of most of the front nine, and the wonderful view of the clubhouse, croquet lawns, practice greens, etc., etc..

The green might have a slight left-right cant in the lower portion, which is immense, but no appreciable slope.
The back tier is flat.  The difference in the tiers is considerable and reminded me of # 16 at Essex County East.

JSlonis,

That may be the prevailing wind.
When I played it, the wind was in our face and fairly brisk.
Getting home in two is doubtful with the wind in that direction.

I observed the footpads of the removed bunkers and was disappointed.  Others at the club think that their removal was a mistake.  I can only hope that the club considers replacing them.

This is a wonderful Par 5 hole, with an incredible green.

TEPaul,

Perhaps, because you are so familiar with the golf course and have played it so many times, you have selected a few outstanding holes, but, the very first hole is impressive in its look and play, and starts your round off with excitement and anticipation.

Besides # 6, I also liked # 2, # 7, # 8, # 9, # 10, # 12, # 13, # 14, # 15, # 16 and # 18 a great deal, the other holes....
I just liked.

I think it's the type of golf course that one could play every day.  It provides challenge and enjoyment in an elegant setting.

[JSlonis]

Pat,

Like you, I was really impressed with the overall quality of the holes at Piping Rock. With such a great variety of holes, it is definitely a course I could enjoy playing everyday.

The wind was not that much of a factor during our play last year.  That fact combined with the firm fast setup, probably led to the hole playing shorter.    

[Craig Disher]

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Can you provide any insight with respect to why Piping Rock called upon Pete Dye in 1985 ?

What was their objective ?

Tommy Naccarato & Tom MacWood,

Can you obtain aerials of the current golf course and the golf course circa 1940 ?

Photos pre and post 1985 would be especially helpful.

[Patrick_Mucci]

CDisher,

We posted simultaneously.

Thanks for the photo.

I noticed that # 15 is a shorter, straight away par 4 up the hill
Today, it's a longer dogleg with the tee to the right of # 14 green.

What can't be seen in the photo is the continuation of the race track bank into the 7th fairway, a neat drop off feature which rewards a very good drive.  Unfortunately, I was a yard short of it, which cost me 20 yards.

Also note how close the 2nd and 7th greens are to one another.

I can't tell from the photo if the 9th green, a biarritz was completely mowed to green.  Today, just the back plateau is mowed as green.  George Bahto or TEPaul can you address the maintainance of that green as green or half and half ?

The 1st hole starts along the left, and above the building complex in the center of the photo.  The 18th hole ends just below the buildings in the center of the photo.

# 3  is the redan
# 6  is the par 5 I love
# 8  is the road hole
# 9  is the Biarritz
# 12 is the Alps
# 13 is the Knoll/Volcano with a short green complex
# 15 is the bell hole

Lost in the aerial is the wonderful topography, over which this wonderful course flows.  

By the way, the other two par 5's are interesting as well, it's just that # 6 seems special.

[Patrick_Mucci]

CDisher,

Thanks again.

Any chance of obtaining and posting a current aerial ?

[Craig Disher]

The best source is mapquest (I'm too lazy this late in the day to check there) - or Scott Burroughs. He must have posted an AOTD of Piping Rock at some point. Perhaps someone has his AOTD list and can cross reference the thread here.

I've almost played Piping Rock twice - once as a guest of a member of a NY social club at one of their outings. Overnight the area was pounded with a severe thunderstorm but the next morning was clear and dry. My friend and I drove out and wondered why we were the only golfers there. The event had been canceled and we were the only pair who weren't notified. The club opened the kitchen for us and gave us an excellent breakfast. Is there a better clubhouse view than the one from the Piping Rock dining room across the fields to the course in the distance? Or a better example of sincere hospitality?

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:  Pete Dye was contacted by a couple of members at the club who were friendly with him to come and look at the course.  As you may or may not remember, in that day it was considered something of an easy, outdated design.  (Really, I'm not making that up.)

Pete told them he had always wanted to do work on a Macdonald / Raynor course, and that with all the acreage they had he could make the course anything they wanted it to be -- even a U.S. Open site.  He did a walk-through and made many recommendations about new tees, bunker changes, etc.  As you know, I supervised the work there in the fall of 1985.

Honestly ... I don't remember filling in much of the bunkering on #6.  I believe Pete had us fill in a couple of the cross bunkers so that the ladies didn't have to make a carry with their second shots, but I don't believe there were as many bunkers in 1984 as are on the photo above.

I don't know that I think it's a great par 5 from start to finish ... it's sort of hard to see all of the landing area from the tee, isn't it?  It is a TERRIFIC green complex and a great third-shot hole with the pin on the back, and I am surprised that Raynor didn't build more holes like it on his other designs.

[Scott_Burroughs]

You guys suck at timing.    PR has not been an AOTD yet, on purpose, but was supposed to be very soon, though Earthlink is not letting me add any new pics to my site yesterday and today, so who knows when it'll come.  

Here's the 6th anyways, not centerred on purpose:

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I've been away from Piping Rock for many decades now so I really couldn't say what motivated the club to hire Pete Dye (Doak) to do what they did to the course. I do know who was responsible for the entire project back then on Piping Rock which included more than just the golf course. It was a man by the name of Robert Merrill, basically a non-golfer, a very avid tennis player and the father in law of my oldest friend. Bob Merrill is a most effective man, lives right across the street and apparently did a very fine job with that project almost twenty years ago. That's the time, I believe, they hired Rich Spears--an excellent superintendent.

At that time they did add a lot of tee length to the course--something I don't exactly agree with but obviously many thought it was necessary. #2 and #8 are very different that way then they were when I was there--so is #15. #8 always had a back tee alongside #7 green and only played about the mid 300s--that's the way that hole was designed!

I never heard that the road you can see around the practice range (once the old double polo fields) was a race track with a bank used as the fairway drop down on #7 but perhaps it once was before 1912 or something. That road that appears on the aerial was just a dirt road that went out to #10 and around the polo fields. My Dad used to practice originally on the upper left side (nearer #1) and later on the lower right side (nearer #10).

There's a story that Macdonald ran afoul of the polo interests at Piping Rock at the very beginning of the golf course and sort of gave up on the project and left it to Raynor. Piping appears to have a very comprehensive library in the clubhouse so maybe there's something about that in there.

Those not that familiar with Piping Rock should understand that the club is an enormous full-service club and always has been--in the beginning with polo and for many many years as much tennis as golf. I believe they actually had a court tennis courst and always had numerous grass tennis courts (and still do)--something that's very unusual. During the old US Open at Forest Hills a lot of the pros would come out and practice at Piping because it was the nearest club that had grass tennis courts. Piping also had a big shooting operation and a great beach club down on the sound near the Creek Club (and still does).

Piping's golf was interesting--at first they had an old Scottish teaching pro named Spence, then Tom Nieporte came for many years and later Jim Albus.

Having grown up around that golf course was great though--although I wasn't much into golf back then but what I do remember from those very early years is Piping Rock's golf course wasn't half as interesting to me as NGLA---that's for sure!!

[TEPaul]

Pat:

As far as I can remember (going pretty far back) that biarritz never had greenspace before the swale--it was always fairway area and I believe it was designed that way originally.

The redan is one of my real favorite redans I've ever seen although ultimately probably not quite as cool as NGLA's. But the thing for golf architecture analysts to concentrate on is that those "copy" holes were never intended by Macdonald and Raynor to be exact copies of the holes elswhere that preceded them or even their prototypes in Europe. Analysts who think that are truly missing the point of those types of holes and what they were supposed to be and were originally designed to be.

They were intended to be variations on a theme or architectural principle but the key is "variations". I'm certain Geo Bahto will back me up on that. Piping's redan plays different than NGLA and I have no doubt it was designed to play slightly different--again, that being part of the point of it. You could hit a low ball onto the fairway area and try to turn it onto the green or you could hit a shot farther into the right side of the green and have it filter that way farther back down to the left side. That shot would hold much better than NGLA because the back or right side was more banked up. Trying to fly a ball directly over the bunker was never a great idea as it filtered left and long too easily. I always admired Piping's redan though because it's green is higher than the others I've seen and the original idea of a military redan is a high fortress affair in my opinion! I believe that #3 Piping is turned slightly more perpindicular to the tee shot than NGLA's is--again making the play to it somewhat different. When it comes to Macd/Raynor redans one of the most interesting I've ever seen and ultimately probably the most difficult to play to was the old reverse redan at the Links club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Thanks for the info.

Only a week ago I played with Tom Nieporte at Winged Foot, prior to my playing at Piping Rock.

I'm scheduled to see Tom again in mid-September and will ask him if he can shed more light on the membership's reasons for bringing in Pete Dye.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I wonder, pre 1985, if Joe Dey's influence and work at The Creek spilled over to Piping Rock, which is like a sister club, influencing them to undertake alterations to their golf course... enter, Pete Dye in 1985.