I was thinking about

[Patrick_Mucci]

opening and closing holes and how I like a short par 4 or par 5 as an opening hole.

And I like par 5 closing holes as well

I recalled that a number of AWT courses start with short par 4's or par 5's.

Baltusrol Upper
Baltusrol Lower
Shackamaxon
Quaker Ridge

Start with par 5's and a number of his courses end with par 5's, like
Baltusrol Lower and Fenway

Piping Rock, The Creek, NGLA and Yale all end with Par 5's.

Understanding that most matches were over by the time golfers reached the 18th tee when these courses were crafted, it would seem counter intuitive that they would design the most difficult of holes to design, the par 5, as their finishing hole.

Did AWT or CBM/SR/CB write anything regarding their design philosophy for the 18th hole.

Did they depart from their contemporaries in that regard ?

On modern designs, Streamsong Red, Sebonack and Pacific Dunes end with par 5's and Sand Hills starts with a par 5.

[Mark Chaplin]

Aren't short par 4s or short 5s a recipe for slow starts? Too many people waiting for greens to clear when they have little chance of hitting it.

[Thomas Dai]

Aren't short par 4s or short 5s a recipe for slow starts? Too many people waiting for greens to clear when they have little chance of hitting it.

A go along with Mark here. My preference is actually for a par-3 starting hole. It's gets all players away quickly and no-one tees off until the green is clear so no debate/squabbling on the 1st tee as to whether it's okay to tee off or not. Variety is pleasant though.
All the best

[Patrick_Mucci]

Aren't short par 4s or short 5s a recipe for slow starts?

No

Too many people waiting for greens to clear when they have little chance of hitting it.

Do you really think that the members of the clubs I cited can hit those opening par 5's in two ?

And do you think that was the case the day these courses opened or only after the I&B got out of control ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Aren't short par 4s or short 5s a recipe for slow starts? Too many people waiting for greens to clear when they have little chance of hitting it.

A go along with Mark here. My preference is actually for a par-3 starting hole. It's gets all players away quickly and no-one tees off until the green is clear so no debate/squabbling on the 1st tee as to whether it's okay to tee off or not. Variety is pleasant though.
All the best

That would call for starting times to be spaced at 13.33 for four hour rounds
15 minutes for 4.5 hour rounds.

How realistic is that ?

Par 3 starting holes cause more problems than par 4 or 5 starting holes.

[Brad Isaacs]

A good staring hole is like a handshake,not to firm but firm enough to know there is something there.....a moderate length par 4, a nice introduction. Nothing too tricky but enough to show interest. Not penal, but strategic.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Aren't short par 4s or short 5s a recipe for slow starts? Too many people waiting for greens to clear when they have little chance of hitting it.

Not usually. The majority lies in players who either cannot, or know they cannot, reach the short 4 with their tee shot or the green of the short 5 with their second shot.

[Jason Thurman]

Aren't short par 4s or short 5s a recipe for slow starts? Too many people waiting for greens to clear when they have little chance of hitting it.

A go along with Mark here. My preference is actually for a par-3 starting hole. It's gets all players away quickly and no-one tees off until the green is clear so no debate/squabbling on the 1st tee as to whether it's okay to tee off or not. Variety is pleasant though.
All the best

That would call for starting times to be spaced at 13.33 for four hour rounds
15 minutes for 4.5 hour rounds.

How realistic is that ?

Par 3 starting holes cause more problems than par 4 or 5 starting holes.

13.33? You really think it takes the same amount of time to play a 180 yard 1-shot hole that it takes to play a 540 yard 3-shot hole? You probably don't play many executive courses, but they don't take 4 hours. Figure more like 8 minutes per hole for par 3s.

Almost any group can play a par 3 in 10 minutes. The good thing about a par 3 opening hole is that it forces the guys on the tee to actually wait for the full interval, since they can't hit until the putts of the previous group are holed out. I've never seen a course that struggled to get first tee shots hit within 10 minutes of the previous group. The problem most courses face is that Group B hits as soon as Group A is clear, on about a six minute interval. This eliminates any buffer between the groups and results in Group B waiting on every shot, beginning with the approach to the 1st hole (since it takes Group A longer to get everybody on the green and holed out than it does for Group B to get to their balls and be ready to hit).

The real problem with a par 3 opener is that most players don't like being asked to hit such a precise shot with their first swing of the day. I don't like it either. But it does have some pace of play benefits.

[Patrick_Mucci]

[/color]

[/quote]

13.33? You really think it takes the same amount of time to play a 180 yard 1-shot hole that it takes to play a 540 yard 3-shot hole?

Jason,

Are you really that obtuse ?

Ask yourself, which takes longer,
1.    hitting your tee shot and completing play on a par 3, OR,
2.    hitting your tee shot and then hitting your second shot on a par 4 or par 5 ?

HINT:    It isn't # 1

You probably don't play many executive courses, but they don't take 4 hours. Figure more like 8 minutes per hole for par 3s.
Almost any group can play a par 3 in 10 minutes.

And how long does it take to hit a tee shot and a second shot

The good thing about a par 3 opening hole is that it forces the guys on the tee to actually wait for the full interval, since they can't hit until the putts of the previous group are holed out.

That's called a "bottleneck.
Can you guarantee that every foursome will complete play on every par 3 in:
1.   8 minutes
2.   10 minutes
3.   12 minutes
4.   15 minutes

What's the average GIR for a 16 handicap ?

I've never seen a course that struggled to get first tee shots hit within 10 minutes of the previous group.

What course do you belong to ?
What course do you play most frequently ?

The problem most courses face is that Group B hits as soon as Group A is clear, on about a six minute interval.
So, you're saying that the courses you play don't have starting times ?
Which courses are they ?

This eliminates any buffer between the groups and results in Group B waiting on every shot, beginning with the approach to the 1st hole (since it takes Group A longer to get everybody on the green and holed out than it does for Group B to get to their balls and be ready to hit).

Yet, you want to deny that reality on opening par 3's
You can't have it both ways

The real problem with a par 3 opener is that most players don't like being asked to hit such a precise shot with their first swing of the day.

I do, because it's easier to prepare for that shot on the practice range.
You know exactly what club you're going to hit and exactly how far, so, you practice that shot on the range.
It's one of the easier opening shots to prepare for

I don't like it either. But it does have some pace of play benefits.

The only pace of play benefit is a delayed tee time for some golfers who were running late
[/quote]

[Jason Thurman]

[/color]

13.33? You really think it takes the same amount of time to play a 180 yard 1-shot hole that it takes to play a 540 yard 3-shot hole?

Jason,

Are you really that obtuse ?

Ask yourself, which takes longer,
1.    hitting your tee shot and completing play on a par 3, OR,
2.    hitting your tee shot and then hitting your second shot on a par 4 or par 5 ?

HINT:    It isn't # 1

Turn your brain on, Pat. The fact that number one takes longer is EXACTLY WHY it's the better option for starting a round. Groups wait two or three extra minutes at the first tee, which gives them a buffer that keeps them from catching the group in front on every subsequent shot.

You probably don't play many executive courses, but they don't take 4 hours. Figure more like 8 minutes per hole for par 3s.
Almost any group can play a par 3 in 10 minutes.

And how long does it take to hit a tee shot and a second shot

Less time, which, again, is exactly why it creates logjams later on if you have a par 4 opener with players teeing off when the landing zone is clear as opposed to a par 3 opener where players tee off when the green is clear. In the former scenario, you eventually reach an approach shot or a par 3 where play simply takes longer than the time interval between the two groups.

The good thing about a par 3 opening hole is that it forces the guys on the tee to actually wait for the full interval, since they can't hit until the putts of the previous group are holed out.

That's called a "bottleneck.
Can you guarantee that every foursome will complete play on every par 3 in:
1.   8 minutes
2.   10 minutes
3.   12 minutes
4.   15 minutes

What's the average GIR for a 16 handicap ?

You're doing that thing where you start asking inane questions because you either know you're wrong or just don't understand the simple facts being presented. Let's start over. There are a few things that are obvious:

1. If a course's pace of play is 4 hours, its pace for par 3s is well under 13:20. Par 3s typically make up about 12 percent of the average course's yardage, which predicts something closer to a 7:12 pace.
2. Assuming all else is equal, it takes longer to play a par 3 tee to green than it does to hit a drive and a second shot on a par 4 or 5. We both agree on this.

So, imagine we're playing Sandwich. Your group is in front of mine. You play the mid-length par 3 opener (I'm not advocating for a LONG par 3, just a mid-length one) in 8 minutes. You clear the green. My group tees off as you tee off at the second (a mid-length par 4). What does my group see when we reach the second tee in 8 minutes? You're smart enough to figure this out. All the information you need is in number 2 above.

I've never seen a course that struggled to get first tee shots hit within 10 minutes of the previous group.

What course do you belong to ?
What course do you play most frequently ?

Clovernook CC in Cincinnati. I'll happily host you if you're ever in town. Our opener is a short par 5. It's easy to get tee shots away within 6 minutes of the previous group, but you'll be waiting for them in the landing area. It's easily reachable.

The problem most courses face is that Group B hits as soon as Group A is clear, on about a six minute interval.
So, you're saying that the courses you play don't have starting times ?
Which courses are they ?

My home course doesn't have tee times. What kind of hobo tracks are you playing? I do occasionally slum it on local publics with the unwashed masses though. Have you ever seen a public course with a greens fee of under $175 where players actually wait until their tee time to hit their first shot as opposed to just going when the coast is clear? Can you name five (5) such courses? I've literally never seen it happen. In fact, I imagine you might get your ass kicked for doing that on a course around here with a backed up first tee.

This eliminates any buffer between the groups and results in Group B waiting on every shot, beginning with the approach to the 1st hole (since it takes Group A longer to get everybody on the green and holed out than it does for Group B to get to their balls and be ready to hit).

Yet, you want to deny that reality on opening par 3's
You can't have it both ways

I don't want it both ways. That's exactly the point. If the first tee shot can't get in the air quite so quickly, it's harder for a group behind to be breathing down the neck of the group in front. I don't understand what about this is so hard for you to comprehend.

The real problem with a par 3 opener is that most players don't like being asked to hit such a precise shot with their first swing of the day.

I do, because it's easier to prepare for that shot on the practice range.
You know exactly what club you're going to hit and exactly how far, so, you practice that shot on the range.
It's one of the easier opening shots to prepare for

To each their own.

I don't like it either. But it does have some pace of play benefits.

The only pace of play benefit is a delayed tee time for some golfers who were running late

What tee intervals do the clubs you play use?
[/quote]
[/quote]

[Josh Tarble]

That's a pretty interesting point Jason...most likely it probably isn't advised because most people like to swing away with their first shot but it probably does have some merit.

At Broadmoor we don't have tee times and swing as soon as the group in front is out of the way, Saturday mornings are usually pretty slow and especially slow through the first 4 holes.  #4 is a par three.  I have been attributing it to the fact that 1 through 3 are tough holes, and the rest ease up a bit, but it could definitely be because of #4 gives groups time to space out.

On the contrary, one of the hardest courses in town - Purgatory - opens with a drive-able par 4.  Every time I've played it we've waited for the green to clear.  I never thought about it until now, but even being a difficult course, I've never had an overly slow round.

Now, with a starter (or willpower in the case of our club) having a gap could be built in but that just doesn't happen too often.

[Steve Kline]

If the average time per hole is 13:20 as Jason, then there is no way the average time for a par 3 would be 7 minutes. The only difference in time would be to hit your drives and get to the ball. I have a hard time believing that takes up half the time of playing a hole. I'd be willing to bet that at least half the time is spent on and around the green. There is probably only a couple of minutes difference between playing a par 3 and par 4.

[Jason Connor]

My home club has a very short par-4 opener.



I think it has nice pace of play and strategic benefits.

In our regular Saturday game of 32-60 people there is usually going to be at least one person per group go for the green.  So while you have to wait a bit longer, groups are very well spaced by the 2nd hole.   This seems to work way better than some places where you get off quickly, but then hit a log jam when the third hole is a long, wet par 3.

Also it has nice strategy.  If you think can hit a nice big draw right off the bat, go for it and putt for eagle.  But if you want to play it safe until you get a rhythm, you can hit an iron and a wedge and 2-putt for par and move on.

[Kevin_D]

Wykagyl has a short-ish par 5 as an opening hole, and when played with the "Palm Beach" routing which we use for most club tournaments (in which you go from 8 to hole 12, play through to 18, and then close with 10-11-9), the course ends with a short-ish par 5 as well.

#9s is probably the most reachable par 5 on the course, and when playing the "Palm Beach", the course concludes with a par 5, par 3 and par 5. This can make things pretty interesting, especially in match play.

[Jason Thurman]

If the average time per hole is 13:20 as Jason, then there is no way the average time for a par 3 would be 7 minutes. The only difference in time would be to hit your drives and get to the ball. I have a hard time believing that takes up half the time of playing a hole. I'd be willing to bet that at least half the time is spent on and around the green. There is probably only a couple of minutes difference between playing a par 3 and par 4.

If you go by the number of strokes taken per hole, par 3s should take closer to 10 minutes to play. That's not quite fair though, since the shot that takes the longest to hit and go find is the drive and there isn't one on a par 3. The actual time average for a par 3 should be right in between 7 and 10 minutes.

Every course I know of that starts on a par 3 is able to maintain a 10 minute interval or better. That's really the point. It doesn't slow down your interval to start on a par 3 (as long as it's of reasonable length and not a hole where complicated rulings will be frequent). It just forces golfers to adhere to the interval a little more than a course that starts on a par 4 of 5 where they can tee off early once the landing zone clears.

[Sean_A]

I agree with Jason.  Opening par 3s tend to keep a steady pace in operation.  Considering folks don't have to wait for folks in front when taking their 2nd and 3rd...that should be about the same time as it takes for guys on a longer hole to hit drives, wait for the green to clear and hit seconds.  That said, par 3s are tough starters for non-warmer uppers...and that isn't so bad.  I don't mind very short par 4s or short par 5s either.  In the end though, I just want a good opener no matter what shape it takes.

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

I recall reading an article about the fellow (Bill Yates) who does the very detailed studies of pace of play issues. According to his data, a par-5 opening hole was the worst from a pace of play perspective. A par-5 opener followed by a par-3 2nd hole only made things worse.

Here is a link to an article about how golf course routing and design can impact pace of play:

http://www.pacemanager.com/designed-for-speed.html   

[Bill_McBride]

At Cabot Links there is a full time starter on the first tee.  This to me is critical to good pace of play.  We were not allowed to hit our tee balls until 10 minutes had elapsed. 

The fact that we spent 4-1/2 hours out there may be attributable to some searching for a few errant tee shots on my end.....

[Matt Glore]

A great starting hole should be like Forest Dunes par 4.
It has a left to right bias off the tee.  An over cut slice gets held up in medium but playable rough.  A hook has room to run before trees get in the way.  The green is very accessible and not overly sloped.

My favorite opening hole is Sand Hills.  A par five to warm up a drive, mid iron, and short iron.  

[George_Bahto]

I guess I'm old school but I feel I want to take out the big-dog, the driver, for the first play of the day.

Perhaps it's because I never played many starting holes as a par three is why that seems a bit alien to me

I would favor shortish, but not drivable, par-4s as an opener.

I grew up (what.? - when was that?), on public courses and few had par-3's as openers ......   Many munis vave terrible opening holes ending up in long waits on the second, third and fourth holes.

[Doug Sobieski]

Generally speaking....

Par 3s take 9-11 minutes to play, depending upon difficulty
Par 4s take 12-15, depending upon difficulty
Par 5s take 15-17, depending upon difficulty

Obviously, there are exceptions at both ends, but these are pretty good guidelines if you're studying pace of play (which I have - I once spent half a day timing the intervals between the flagstick going into the hole on the 18th green). Generally speaking, would you want to have play start on a Par 3 where you know that it's hit or miss whether the group in front clears in time? If you have 10 minute intervals, and every 4th group takes 11 minutes, you're a group behind by 9am. On a typical driving hole, it takes about 6-8 minutes for the group to clear the landing zone UNLESS it's a reachable par 5 or drivable par 4. If the opener was drivable/reachable and one guy in a group has a chance, that means likely 12-15 minutes to clear the tee or landing area.

It's not rocket science, but math certainly helps.

[Paul Gray]

Generally speaking....

Par 3s take 9-11 minutes to play, depending upon difficulty
Par 4s take 12-15, depending upon difficulty
Par 5s take 15-17, depending upon difficulty

Obviously, there are exceptions at both ends, but these are pretty good guidelines if you're studying pace of play (which I have - I once spent half a day timing the intervals between the flagstick going into the hole on the 18th green). Generally speaking, would you want to have play start on a Par 3 where you know that it's hit or miss whether the group in front clears in time? If you have 10 minute intervals, and every 4th group takes 11 minutes, you're a group behind by 9am. On a typical driving hole, it takes about 6-8 minutes for the group to clear the landing zone UNLESS it's a reachable par 5 or drivable par 4. If the opener was drivable/reachable and one guy in a group has a chance, that means likely 12-15 minutes to clear the tee or landing area.

It's not rocket science, but math certainly helps.

Speaking from personal experience, the par 3 opening hole is a success for pretty much all the reasons already explained by others. In short, forcing 10 minute intervals upon groups stops the 'rush to get on the motorway' which, three holes down the line, forces everyone to sit on the tee waiting.

Consider this, if groups are going off every, say, six minutes and the second hole is a par 3, is there anyway of avoiding a pile up? No. It's not anyone's fault, as such, it's just that there are only so many people you can fit through a certain space within a certain period of time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Generally speaking....

Par 3s take 9-11 minutes to play, depending upon difficulty
Par 4s take 12-15, depending upon difficulty
Par 5s take 15-17, depending upon difficulty

Obviously, there are exceptions at both ends, but these are pretty good guidelines if you're studying pace of play (which I have - I once spent half a day timing the intervals between the flagstick going into the hole on the 18th green). Generally speaking, would you want to have play start on a Par 3 where you know that it's hit or miss whether the group in front clears in time? If you have 10 minute intervals, and every 4th group takes 11 minutes, you're a group behind by 9am. On a typical driving hole, it takes about 6-8 minutes for the group to clear the landing zone UNLESS it's a reachable par 5 or drivable par 4. If the opener was drivable/reachable and one guy in a group has a chance, that means likely 12-15 minutes to clear the tee or landing area.

It's not rocket science, but math certainly helps.

Doug,

If it takes 9-11 minutes to play a par 3 and only 6-8 minutes to clear the landing zone on par 4's/5's which will increase pace of play more ?

[Doug Sobieski]

Generally speaking....

Par 3s take 9-11 minutes to play, depending upon difficulty
Par 4s take 12-15, depending upon difficulty
Par 5s take 15-17, depending upon difficulty

Obviously, there are exceptions at both ends, but these are pretty good guidelines if you're studying pace of play (which I have - I once spent half a day timing the intervals between the flagstick going into the hole on the 18th green). Generally speaking, would you want to have play start on a Par 3 where you know that it's hit or miss whether the group in front clears in time? If you have 10 minute intervals, and every 4th group takes 11 minutes, you're a group behind by 9am. On a typical driving hole, it takes about 6-8 minutes for the group to clear the landing zone UNLESS it's a reachable par 5 or drivable par 4. If the opener was drivable/reachable and one guy in a group has a chance, that means likely 12-15 minutes to clear the tee or landing area.

It's not rocket science, but math certainly helps.

Doug,

If it takes 9-11 minutes to play a par 3 and only 6-8 minutes to clear the landing zone on par 4's/5's which will increase pace of play more ?

Pat, what may appear to be the mathematically correct answer doesn't always make the most sense from a business perspective. I'm not going to argue with you (I'm not currently wearing a helmet to protect me from beating my head against the wall) or help you support your position. I simply offered some FACTS for discussion, and asked a question (that was the sentence that ended with a question mark).

[Thomas Dai]

Regarding pace of play, could I just point out that in some parts of the world many private members clubs do not, except in formal competitions, operate defined tee-times rather a "just turn up and play" system operates, and operates successfully. Similarly in many parts of the world casual golf is not always played by 4 men playing in a 4-ball but is frequently played in 3-balls or 2-balls and with men and ladies and senior men and juniors all playing together and from differing teeing grounds.
All the best