[Patrick_Mucci]

What would a full blown restoration of Yale cost?  Let's pick a ridiculous number like $5mm.  

Why not pick a realistic number.

First, there's very little in the way of major work.
# 3 green and # 16 green (don't see it improving the course, hence would question the restoration))
Raising # 17 fronting bluff
Restore a few bunkers
Restore hump in # 2

What else needs to be done ?

Cost ?

250-500 K to 1 M

That's roughly how much interest the Yale endowment earned this past weekend while GCAers trod the fairways.  
This is purely a political football where elitist Yale alumns see golf as elitist IMNSHO.  

Same goes for a beefed up maintenance budget.  


Maintenance budget is 1.7 M.
How much more would you like it beefed up ?

One would think that places like Yale and Michigan would treasure these historic tracks and see them as a feather in their cap.  Don't many of the wealthiest alumni play golf?  Wouldn't a fund-raiser at the course for benefactors be a no-brainer?  Political correctness run amok.  At least Michigan had the good sense to begin a restoration, albeit a long-term plan, and that's probably only because the new AD is a golfer...

Unfortunately, the golf course is the red headed step child.
You'd think that 30,000+ rounds a year would set off a light bulb with someone.

[Patrick_Mucci]

My intern Riley and I stopped at Yale yesterday evening on the way home, and they were nice enough to let us play 11 holes before dark.  In fact Colin Sheehan caught up with us by the third green.

I had not been back there for about 15 years and while I remember the course pretty well, I was astounded by the scale of it on a re-visit.  We think we are building dramatic stuff from time to time, but I haven't seen anything as big and bold as Yale since, well, probably since the last time I played at Yale.  Out of the 11 holes we played, there is nobody today who would have the balls to build 7 of those holes:

You wouldn't build the carry off the first tee
You wouldn't build a bunker as deep as to the left of the second
You wouldn't build a blind shot over the ridge like the third
You wouldn't build a green with the pronounced bank of the eighth (or the bunkers at each side)
You wouldn't build an all-carry 200-yard Biarritz over water like the ninth
You wouldn't build either the tee shot OR the second shot at the tenth, and
You wouldn't even think of building the eighteenth

And yet, when you put all of that together, Yale is fun to play.

How do you account for 30,000+ rounds on a golf course with such dramatic architecture ?

So, it seems like Yogi saying, "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded"

Obviously, there's great appeal to the individual features and holes and the collective of same.
How do you account for that when the course would seem to be the antithesis of the regular/retail golfer's tastes ?

It's counter intuitive isn't it.

I think that "score" has been a great impediment or inhibitor to having fun.

I can see someone, having the time, fun and game of their life, standing on the 18th tee, one up against an opponent far better than them, and losing the hole to a double bogey, and walking off the course beeming and joyful regarding the day/round that they just had.

I think a hole that produces a high number can sometimes doom a course's popularity amonst the card and pencil set.

But, in the environment of match play, how can you not have an absolute blast playing Yale.

And, the crazier, bolder the hole locations, the more fun you'll have.

So, what's the disconnect between the modern golfer and the genius in the design at Yale.

I'm puzzled.

I love the course and could play it every day for the rest of my life and, I'd go to bed ecstatic with anticipation of playing it tomorrow.

What about the dramatic architecture wouldn't appeal to the modern golfer ?

Conversely, are you stating that you have to dumb down your design in order to appeal to the modern day golfer ?

I can't think of another course you could say that about.

[Jud_T]

$1.7mm maintenance budget?  Don't they have a school of Landscape Architecture for fresh meat?

[Jim Nugent]

Does the school lose money on the course?  i.e. do they net/net positive or negative? 

If they lose money, or barely make any, they may not see the incentive to sink more capital into it. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does the school lose money on the course?  i.e. do they net/net positive or negative? 

If they lose money, or barely make any, they may not see the incentive to sink more capital into it. 

Jim,

$ 1,700,000 divided by 30,000 equals $ 56.67 per round

If they charged an average of $ 57 per round, they'd be making money.

Anything above an average of $ 57 per round is incremental profit.

But, I wouldn't imagine that they're looking to the golf course to be a profit center, rather a convenience to students, faculty, alumni, members and guests of same.

What gets lost in the general number, and what's critical to conditions, is how it's divided up.

[Steve Okula]

That's 1.7 million only for the maintenence budget. There are numerous other costs involved, staffing the clubhouse and pro shop, administrative, security, taxes, and not least capital expense, you need to constantly be replacing worn out and obsolete equipment.

I know that Yale is a union shop and the greenkeeping crew do very well there, the highest paid greenkeepers I have ever met. Starting wages come to about $60k/year with overtime plus just about every benefit you can think of. [/pre]

[Jud_T]

I may be nuts but for 1.7mm you ought to be able to eat sashimi off that turf...Gotta love those unions....

[Mike Sweeney]

The 6 days of cooler weather and the healing process has begun.... Beautiful day today:

[JC Jones]

I'm with Jud.  $1.7mm seems RIDICULOUSLY high.  

[Mike Sweeney]

I'm with Jud.  $1.7mm seems RIDICULOUSLY high.  

Great, the Midwest guys agree!

Reasons why Yale has a high maintenance cost:

1. Scott Ramsey measures the green in ACRES, not square feet! He has increased their size by probably 20+% in some cases to the point that there are now sprinkler heads ON MANY GREENS. The sprinkler system was put in later in life and Scott and Yale decided to take greens back closer to their original size. This cost money, but GCA.com goobers love it! I am told that Yale's greens are probably top 10 in the world in terms of size. No way to verify this.

2. The size of the property is massive. The only courses that compare on the EAST COAST are Bethpage, Shinnecock, Pine Valley, Fishers Island, National. None of those properties have the severity of Yale's property which creates lots of drainage issues, more to come on this.

3. Yale Golf Course is part of the Athletic Department. It is there for the benefit of the team, students, faculty and staff. Considering there are 11,000 employees at Yale, 30,000 rounds is less than I would have expected. The Athletic Department is roughly the same size in terms of student athletes (roughly 900) as Michigan State University. Yale has 5500 students versus 35,000 or so at MSU. There is never enough money in any Ivy League, Patriot League or NESCAC athletic department as these places run huge athletic departments without the benefit of TV money. See the data here:

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/GetOneInstitutionData.aspx

ESPN only shows up for the Frozen Four and Lax playoffs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/25/sports/ncaafootball/college-footballs-most-dominant-player-its-espn.html

4. Assuming the above statement is true (I don't know), with salaries in the $60,000+ range for the greens staff, obviously the cost structure is high. 10 workers gets you to a third of the budget. As one of the larger employers in Connecticut, Yale can't do seasonal employees or immigrant workers without official paperwork. From 2004 interview:

https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/interviews/summaries/040907_Ramsay.htm

When he first arrived at Yale, the union staff had just gone on strike so Scott used coaches, administrators, and members to maintain the course for several weeks. Since then he has improved union management relations; after only one year he had a staff triple the size of that when he arrived. His staff consists of permanent full time, full time seasonal, and part time seasonal (dinning hall staff and students) employees, with 16-20 employed at the peak. With this staff and new equipment, the greens can be cut daily and the fairways groomed every 2-3 days before play begins.

5. Water - I don't understand all the issues, but Yale Golf Course has had a huge water problem to the extent that Scott has to negotiate directly with the State over restrictions in some years. It is my understanding that much of this work is under control. From a recent newsletter:


"Unfortunately most of the improvements are regulatory and " back of the house" expenses that must be done and aren't apparent (or enhance) your golf experience.  We were required to install an equipment wash area this year and that has just become operational, a very expensive project. We also completed all of the necessary CT DEEP water diversion upgrades. Last year we completed the irrigation enhancements to improve our water use efficiency. Currently the cart path on 9 is on top of a water dam which the CT DEEP has asked Yale to inspect and perform some remedial repairs. Lots of activity and money spent."

6. Drainage - Before Scott, drainage was ignored. Simple things like pulling leaves out of the woods was not performed. 50-60 years of leaves piling up screws up the drainage. The course sits on clay and stone as opposed to sand 20+ miles south at Friars Head. Glaciers brought the wild terrain that is loved at Yale, but they also screw up drainage for a golf course. From the same newsletter:

The old axiom is, " moving water cools and standing water cooks." The biggest challenge in front of us is getting the water to move. More to follow.

Scott came out on a Sunday to speak to our group, his one day off. The guy is totally dedicated to the golf course, and sooner or later someone will wave a big check in front of him. I hope he stays through the next 10 years of transformation.

7. Community - I am told Yale University had bad community relations back in the 70's and 80's. Now the athletic facilities are open to many groups locally including a First Tee program and high school matches at the golf course. This all creates extra wear and tear on the course.

I am sure there are others, but Yale sitting in a urban environment that seems like a nature wilderness is unique to golf in many ways beyond the architecture.

[JC Jones]

3. Yale Golf Course is part of the Athletic Department. It is there for the benefit of the team, students, faculty and staff. Considering there are 11,000 employees at Yale, 30,000 rounds is less than I would have expected. The Athletic Department is roughly the same size in terms of student athletes (roughly 900) as Michigan State University. Yale has 5500 students versus 35,000 or so at MSU. There is never enough money in any Ivy League, Patriot League or NESCAC athletic department as these places run huge athletic departments without the benefit of TV money. See the data here:

A few things you ought to know about the Michigan State University before you use it as a point of comparison:

1.  The university has 2, 18 hole golf courses, along with a short-game facility the size of a full driving range (because it used to be one) with a half dozen greens and several bunkers, a double end driving range over 350 yards long and a massive practice green.  Whatever the square acreage of the Yale golf course, I'm pretty sure MSU has it beat as far as maintained areas.

2.  The golf courses are not operated as part of the athletic budget.  The golf courses are maintained as part of the Landscape Services (read: grounds) department and the golf operations are a part of the self-sustaining and non-budgeted Spartan Hospitality Group that includes the university's hotels, alumni chapel, bakery and other hospitality related functions.  Also, the size of the student body at Michigan State as compared to Yale is irrelevant because the Athletic Department is also self-sustaining, in fact, it gives ~$10mm to the university every year.

3.  The total budget for the 2011-2012 academic year for the Landscape Services department was $3.24mm.  In addition to the maintenance of the golf courses, the department website says:

"Landscape Services maintains all horticultural material and outdoor litter and debris control. The staff also maintains roads, bridges, walks, ornamental pools and outdoor furniture. The department works at construction sites to install or repair the landscape around those areas. It maintains informational and traffic signs on campus as well as repairing operation and service equipment used in grounds maintenance operations.

While it is possible the golf courses take up 55% of this budget, I doubt it.  


As an aside, it has long been a source of contention at MSU that the school with the best turf grass department in the country has its grounds department running its golf courses; but government departments have never been ones to shed things once given.

[Steve Okula]

As an aside, it has long been a source of contention at MSU that the school with the best turf grass department in the country has its grounds department running its golf courses;

That sounds more than a little biased. There are some excellent turf schools in the U.S.

[Jud_T]

They may be second class citizens in most disciplines, but one thing they know about in East Lansing is grass..

[JC Jones]

As an aside, it has long been a source of contention at MSU that the school with the best turf grass department in the country has its grounds department running its golf courses;

That sounds more than a little biased. There are some excellent turf schools in the U.S.

I didn't say there weren't.

[JC Jones]

They may be second class citizens in most disciplines, but one thing they know about in East Lansing is grass..

Two words: hash bash. 

Learn your own history!

[Mike Schott]

We are getting pretty far OT, but as an MSU Alum, I hate that the golf courses are part of the hospitality group. Mainly because Akers West has been severely compromised due to the shuffling of the holes to accommodate the conference center. I much prefer the original layout.

[Jud_T]

They may be second class citizens in most disciplines, but one thing they know about in East Lansing is grass..

Two words: hash bash. 

Learn your own history!

My bad.  It's all a bit hazy...

[JC Jones]

We are getting pretty far OT, but as an MSU Alum, I hate that the golf courses are part of the hospitality group. Mainly because Akers West has been severely compromised due to the shuffling of the holes to accommodate the conference center. I much prefer the original layout.

Agree completely.  Though the courses have never been particularly well managed.

[Sean_A]

JC

Yale cost a bomb to build and that usually means it will cost a bomb to maintain.  In any case, what does it matter?  Its not like Yale is sucking the state's teat and the uni can afford it.  

Ciao

[JC Jones]

JC

Yale cost a bomb to build and that usually means it will cost a bomb to maintain.  In any case, what does it matter?  Its not like Yale is sucking the state's teat and the uni can afford it.  

Ciao

Sean,

State universities aren't exactly getting much from that teat anymore, but that is irrelevant.  

It doesn't really matter at all what their maintenance budget is, other than it speaks to the general sustainability of the game.

A course that wasn't subsidized by an endowment that could cover Michigan State's budget for the next 20 years, doing 30,000 rounds per year, would have to charge $60 for walkers just to make back the maintenance budget.  Tack on whatever else to cover operations and carts, call it $15-20, would take that to $75-80 just to break even.  We talk about how the cost of the game is a barrier to entry, perhaps large maintenance budgets should take some of the blame.

[Garland Bayley]

So Tom,

Can we expect Yale to be a 10 next go around?

[Mike Sweeney]

 We talk about how the cost of the game is a barrier to entry, perhaps large maintenance budgets should take some of the blame.

Ailing Memorial Golf Club in New Haven is $34 max for a non-resident for 18 holes. Does every course have to be affordable?

http://www.allingmemorialgolfclub.com/

[JC Jones]

Affordable is relative.

[Sean_A]

JC

Yale cost a bomb to build and that usually means it will cost a bomb to maintain.  In any case, what does it matter?  Its not like Yale is sucking the state's teat and the uni can afford it.  

Ciao

Sean,

State universities aren't exactly getting much from that teat anymore, but that is irrelevant.  

It doesn't really matter at all what their maintenance budget is, other than it speaks to the general sustainability of the game.

A course that wasn't subsidized by an endowment that could cover Michigan State's budget for the next 20 years, doing 30,000 rounds per year, would have to charge $60 for walkers just to make back the maintenance budget.  Tack on whatever else to cover operations and carts, call it $15-20, would take that to $75-80 just to break even.  We talk about how the cost of the game is a barrier to entry, perhaps large maintenance budgets should take some of the blame.

JC

I am all for affordable, sustainable golf, but so long as a course/club isn't in some form of government owned I am not bothered about large maintenance budgets.  I think its unnecessary, but then so are huge pick up trucks...and so what?  What difference does it make to Joe Bloggs what they do at Yale?  Yale can worry about Yale problems.  

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

The issue to me isn't the cost of golf at Yale. The cost to play is very reasonable if you compare it to joining a club in the area, and as you say it's their choice, it's the apparent quality of the playing surface for the price.  Yes they do double the rounds, but for 1.7mm I'd expect conditions very similar to the best private clubs in the area.  If some of the best minds in academia can't figure out how to bust a union and get some scab students in there, or throw even more money at the problem, we may have to alert the ratings panel at US News & World Report...

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