[Mike Benham]

This thread is ridiculous.  The PGA of America owns and operates its own championship for the benefit of its membership.  They are not going to move the tournament to New Zealand. 

+1

How many members of the PGA of America are based in New Zealand or Australia?  (I know of 1 ...)

[Ben Baldwin]

Couple of things.  First I'm a member of the PGA of America (for what ever that is worth).  All this talk of moving the PGA of AMERICA's event outside of the United States...as Tom said....IT WON'T HAPPEN.  Maybe it's fun for discussion, but why waste time discussing something that won't happen.

SECOND....
Quote from: Tom_Doak on Today at 12:47:41 PM

How about this?  They play it every year at the home club of the professional who won the previous year's Club Professional Championship.


Tom I noticed your original post had this removed, so maybe you've already realized why this is impossible as well, but noticed it in a quoted reply.

But here is why it can't happen.  Winner of this years PNC (club professional national championship). Rod Perry...great player.

If that was the case....next years PGA would be in Florida on a 5025 yd.   course with a slope and rating of 120   64.7

[Jud_T]

Ben,

You could have par 68, 10 yard fairways, 8 inch rough and greens running at 15...and of course the obligatory 5+ hour rounds....

[George Pazin]

I favor moving the US Open permanently to Oakmont and the PGA alternating between Fox Chapel and Field Club.

But not until I can purchase a home in Fox Chapel to rent out a few times a year.

Should be good to go in about... 2050.

[Garland Bayley]

The PGA should not move to February. Daylight hours HELLO!
The PGA should not move around the world. It already is a major just as it is, and the one with the strongest field.
The people that may need to band together to increase their importance would be the various PGA Tours, and hold their championship around the world. Perhaps then they can unseat that weak sister major the masters. You know the major for sentimental and ceremony lovers. Hardly a major when it comes to golfers.

I would love to see a major championship in Texas in August. Man up golfers! Maybe caddies that are too old might retire in a timely fashion then.

As far as a rota is concerned, French Lick, East Hampton, University Place, Pinehurst are my top candidates. Other than that a couple of alternating locals somewhere New England, somewhere California, somewhere mountain west, somewhere Dallas-Fort Worth, somewhere Chicago.

[David Davis]

As much as I hate to say it I find the PGA Championships a bit boring in comparison to the other majors. Golf is such a growing sport internationally I really would like to see the PGA Championships moved down under. Not my idea, someone else suggested this in another thread but I really thought it was a brilliant idea.

So the list of courses could look something like this:

Royal Melbourne - composite
Kingston Heath
NSW
Royal Adelaide
The National
Metropolitan

And maybe 2 courses in NZ.

Cape Kidnappers and?

I guess the guys from down under would be better able to judge the ability of these courses to hold such an event. Personally on one play it's too tough a call but I think it would be great for golf and make the PGA Chmps a lot more interesting.

They way I should of phrased it to be more clear was simply to eliminate the PGA Chmps and create a global major in OZ/NZ. Or maybe better yet would be to eliminate the Grand Slam of Golf and create instead a 5th Major that takes place down under or even in Asia. It only takes money to make it happen, for the most part.

[Matthew Rose]

How about modified Stableford? Or is that too gimmicky?

[Ronald Montesano]

LET'S TRY THIS AGAIN, MORONS!!! MAKE A LIST OR DON'T CONTRIBUTE.

I'm not going to dictate a theme for this hypothetical rota; I'll leave that to y'uns.

The point of this exercise is to set a rotation of courses (I'll set 8 courses as the immutable parameter; I'm obdurate like that) with a theme of your choosing, that will make the PGA Championship more significant (in your eyes) and more distinctive (in your eyes) for the golf aficionados del presente and aficionados del porvenir. Architectural significance/connectivity should be fully explained.

If you choose to go the humorous route, I'll allow it. A minor amount of entertainment is always welcome.

The more realistic route would be to find a way to incorporate less-used site, albeit ones that would have a modicum of interest and the ability to host (community support, on-site/neighboring infrastructure, etc.)

Take your marks, get so, a-go...

[JLahrman]

If the PGA wants to have a bit of its own identity, they should stage the tournament at newer courses and let the US Open take the older established clubs. The flaw, of course, is that the USGA already jumped on Chambers Bay and Erin Hills.

I'd love to see the US Open stay at places like Shinnecock, Oakmont, Pebble, Winged Foot, etc.

The PGA could build its identity on the newer upstarts such as:
Whistling Straits
Chambers Bay
Erin Hills
Ocean Course
Sebonack
Honors Course
Valhalla
Crooked Stick
Trump of your choice

[Mike Sweeney]

LET'S TRY THIS AGAIN, MORONS!!! MAKE A LIST OR DON'T CONTRIBUTE.

www.golfclubsatlas.com


GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote frank commentary on golf course architecture.

Sorry, but I still believe your premise is wrong. The four Majors of golf should represent the international game of golf. Why in the world are three Majors in the USA? Can you really say the fourth major should be played in a second tier city in the USA on a second tier course rather than say the Sand Belt of Australia ?

Premier League (style) Football (soccer) is coming to the USA, American Football is going overseas, NBA is everywhere. Golf is behind and the PGA needs to adjust or lose their status as a Major....

[Matthew Essig]

1. Torrey Pines
2. Oak Hill
3. Atlanta Athletic Club
4. Hazeltine
5. Trump LA
6. Liberty National
7. Firestone
8. Trump Doral

A tournament is seeking to find who plays the best under the circumstances. As fun as it is to watch the pros play a course that makes them think and have options, it doesn't mean that this has to be the way to determine the winner. Sure, we would love to watch them play Pine Valley, NGLA, LACC, ANGC, the Bandon courses, Sebonack, etc., every week, but they could go play a muni or a par 3 course to determine who is playing the best.

[Mike Sweeney]

This thread is ridiculous.  The PGA of America owns and operates its own championship for the benefit of its membership.  They are not going to move the tournament to New Zealand.

+1

How many members of the PGA of America are based in New Zealand or Australia?  (I know of 1 ...)

From Wikipedia:

The majors originally consisted of two British tournaments, The Open Championship and The Amateur Championship, and two American tournaments, the U.S. Open and the U.S. Amateur. With the introduction of the Masters Tournament in 1934, and the rise of professional golf in the late 1940s and 1950s, the term "major championships" eventually came to describe the Masters, the U.S. Open, the Open Championship, and the PGA Championship. It is difficult to determine when the definition changed to include the current four tournaments, although many trace it to Arnold Palmer's 1960 season. After winning the Masters and the U.S. Open to start the season, he remarked that if he could win the Open Championship and PGA Championship to finish the season, he would complete "a grand slam of his own" to rival Bobby Jones's 1930 feat. Until that time, many U.S. players such as Byron Nelson also considered the Western Open and the North and South Open as two of golf's "majors,"[4] and the British PGA Matchplay Championship was as important to British and Commonwealth professionals as the PGA Championship was to Americans.

During the 1950s, the short-lived World Championship of Golf was viewed as a "major" by its competitors, as its first prize was worth almost ten times any other event in the game, and it was the first event whose finale was televised live on U.S. television.

______________________________________________________

Mike and Tom,

I am somewhat surprised as historians that you buy into this American TV definition of Major golf.

If someone in Dubai puts up 10 times the prize money during the second weekend of August, and brings in FOX to televise to the American audience, what happens?

In addition, the PGA has no Amateurs in the tournament. The distinction of the PGA as a "Major" is driven by:

• USA Television
• $$
• PGA Tour and Euro Tour exemption status

All of those things can and will change, same way the US Amateur is no longer considered a Major.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike and Tom,

I am somewhat surprised as historians that you buy into this American TV definition of Major golf.  The distinction of the PGA as a "Major" is driven by:

• USA Television
• $$
• PGA Tour and Euro Tour exemption status

All of those things can and will change, same way the US Amateur is no longer considered a Major.

Mike:

As Jim Urbina used to say to Mr. Nicklaus sometimes, I don't disagree.  I was simply responding to Ronald's original question.  Royal Melbourne and Cape Kidnappers are never going to be part of a PGA Championship rota.  And, to paraphrase Charlton Heston, you'll have to pry its major status away from its cold, dead hands.

By the way, Royal Melbourne is going to host the Australian PGA Championship and the World Cup in back to back weeks this November.  That ought to be some great golf ... but we'll have to see how many of the world's best players decide to make the trip.

[Mike Sweeney]

By the way, Royal Melbourne is going to host the Australian PGA Championship and the World Cup in back to back weeks this November.  That ought to be some great golf ... but we'll have to see how many of the world's best players decide to make the trip.

http://championship.pga.org.au/prize-money

Prize Money Breakdown

Prize money breakdown

Total prize money: $1,500,000 AUD


________________________________

Tom,

Not that many.....

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

My mistake ... it's the Australian Masters that's being played at Royal Melbourne, the week before the World Cup.  You are probably right that a small purse will keep many away, but Adam Scott should be there, at least, since he is defending the title.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The last time I looked, the PGA is the Professional Golfer's Association of AMERICA.

There are many quality non-USGA aligned courses that are available to host this event in the USA: Bethpage Black(2019?) and Aronimink, for example. They can skip Oak Hill.

Methinks Sebonack has its sight set on a US Open.

While the idea of a professional event at Bandon playing their 4 courses is intriguing, the logistics are  a nightmare.

Why not have a 5th Major, a la the LPGA? I'm sure sites and sponsors can be found in China, ANZ, Europe, Africa and South America. Tax considerations come into play for many countries. See Mickelson's net after his 2 wins in Scotland.

I'm sure Finchem wouldn't mind.  

[Sean_A]

Majors aren't just created.  The PGA will remain a major and it will remain a US based major - as it must.  I think a better approach is to create a completely different event which is based on the Wimbledon model but moves around the world.  Like the Masters, maybe one day it replaces the PGA as a major - I would hope so if done right. 

So far as 8 venues for the current lackluster PGA, it is not a big deal until the event reverts back to matchplay.  Then we would have some choices to make.  The first thing to do is open up the USGA vaults and grab some of their scared cows - Pebble Beach, Pinehurst, Shinnecock, Merion & Oakmont.   The notion that there are US Open venues and PGA venues is stupid.  The second thing to do is keep Kiawah and Whistling Straits sweet.  The third thing to do is grab one of the universally praised courses such as Prarie Dunes, Sand Hills, Sebonacketc to create a sort of mini-rota and see how they fare. 

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Majors aren't just created.  The PGA will remain a major and it will remain a US based major - as it must. 

Wow. I did not see this coming from the England golf tour operator who grew up in the USA.

This is probably what Detroit Auto executives said when Honda and Toyota entered the USA market. Don't look now, but an Australian who started the concept of a World Tour just signed with the Australian who owns Fox who will be broadcasting the US Open.

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/aug/10/greg-norman-fox-sport-golf-broadcast-analyst-offer/

You really think that Rupert Murdoch is just going to broadcast the US Open and be done with it? You think hiring Greg Norman was because he is a good announcer?

In my opinion, Norman never forgot how he was treated when he suggested the World Golf Tour:

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-11-18/sports/sp-64198_1_pga-tour

My prediction is Professional Golf is going to change dramatically in the next 10 years, and Rupert Murdoch is going to target the PGA Championship which is very very vulnerable in its current format as the fourth Major.

Golf is a business, and Greg Norman is a better businessman than he was a golfer (never won a PGA). He and Murdoch are going to target the PGA as a fourth major in golf and try to create a fourth Major in Asia, and not necessarily in Australia. The growth of golf is outside of the USA and these guys are smart.

http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/hof/member.php?member=1087

[Tom ORourke]

1. Old Mac
2. Whistling Straits
3. Hazeltine
4. Aronimink
5. Winged Foot West
6. Castle Pines
7. Oakland Hills
8. Riviera

Take it east, west, and central to places that have some history or, for Old Mac, some degree of curiosity factor. TV would like Old Mac, Riviera and Castle Pines as it could be prime time golf before football season starts. If Winged Foot said no I would try for Bethpage or Baltusrol to keep a New York area event.

[Jud_T]

Mike,

You may well be onto something.  Additionally given the mediocre quality and ratings of most current golf broadcasts, FOX could gain significant market share and visibility with an improved product offering, thus giving them a leg up in promoting a world event or events.  The networks got fat and lazy with the Tiger factor.  When he's not in contention only hard core golfers watch and the boredom of most tour events and the way they're presented are exposed.  Hell, you could even argue that the PGA tour itself should take notice.

[Sean_A]

Majors aren't just created.  The PGA will remain a major and it will remain a US based major - as it must. 

Wow. I did not see this coming from the England golf tour operator who grew up in the USA.

This is probably what Detroit Auto executives said when Honda and Toyota entered the USA market. Don't look now, but an Australian who started the concept of a World Tour just signed with the Australian who owns Fox who will be broadcasting the US Open.

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/aug/10/greg-norman-fox-sport-golf-broadcast-analyst-offer/

You really think that Rupert Murdoch is just going to broadcast the US Open and be done with it? You think hiring Greg Norman was because he is a good announcer?

In my opinion, Norman never forgot how he was treated when he suggested the World Golf Tour:

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-11-18/sports/sp-64198_1_pga-tour

My prediction is Professional Golf is going to change dramatically in the next 10 years, and Rupert Murdoch is going to target the PGA Championship which is very very vulnerable in its current format as the fourth Major.

Golf is a business, and Greg Norman is a better businessman than he was a golfer (never won a PGA). He and Murdoch are going to target the PGA as a fourth major in golf and try to create a fourth Major in Asia, and not necessarily in Australia. The growth of golf is outside of the USA and these guys are smart.

http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/hof/member.php?member=1087

Now you are onto a much bigger and better idea than the PGA.  I am all in favour of a proper world tour - sort of like the premier league with individual country tours acting as mini tours.  However, so far as I know, the PGA of America exists to benefit its members.  I don't see how diluting their product is beneficial to the membership unless a ton of "buy out" money is tossed about.  Until that day comes when PGA members chase a drastically restructered organization, can you see the PGA of America taking one of its two prize events round the world?  I can't.  

Even when/if a world tour is started up, I hope the Wimbledon model is followed to create competition for recognition as the 4th major.  I was never interested in the so called 5th major.  Its just like the rest and we already have too many of those.

Ciao

[Scott Weersing]

Here is the criteria I used for my 8. Four of the best courses that have hosted a PGA and then four of the best courses based on location.

Whistling Straits
Southern Hills
Hazeltine
Riveria

Chambers Bay
Bethpage Black
Old American GC (or the new one that C and C are designing)
Aronimink

2 in the MW, 2 in the west, 2 in the south and 2 in the east.

Other courses I would love to see the PGA play at but are not in the right location: Ballyneal, Dismal River, La Purisima, Rustic Canyon, Ballyhack and Royal New Kent





And here is the opposite, the 8 courses that would kill the PGA off and make it just another tournament:

Liberty National
PGA National
Cog Hill
Torrey Pines
Medinah No. 3
A Trump course
A Fazio course
Another Rees Jones course

[Brian Finn]

I'm going to keep it simple and assume the timing and format remain as they are today, although I think many of the ideas raised thus far would be really interesting.  

8 courses that would make an ideal rota for the PGA:

1 - Riviera
2 - Bethpage Black
3 - Kiawah Ocean
4 - Whistling Straits
5 - Aronimink
6 - Oakland Hills
7 - Southern Hills
8 - Chambers Bay

I would go to Riviera and Bethpage Black every 5 years and the other 6 courses once every 10 years.  From a regional perspective, this rotation would visit the Northeast, Midwest, and West 3 times each and the Southeast once every 10 years.  I would consider replacing one of the 3 Midwest courses with Quail Hollow to balance the regions a bit more.  Two other courses that just missed my cut were Baltusrol and Hazeltine, both of which seem to work fairly well for this championship.

[George Pazin]

Mike, I think you are misreading those who say the PGA must remain in America. It seems to me they are saying it must, simply because it is an American organization, run by and for American golf pros. They are not saying another (international) event couldn't replace the PGA as the 4th major.

Of course, maybe I'm just misreading you AND them.

As an aside, if the US PGA Tour did in fact purchase the Euro Tour, it (USPGATour) would have an incentive to push an international event as major-level, ala The Players; something like the Volvo Masters or the Euro PGA might get pushed up to that level.

-----

Ron, here is my list in list of 8 form:

Fox Chapel
Field Club
Fox Chapel
Field Club
Fox Chapel
Field Club
Fox Chapel
Field Club

 

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike, I think you are misreading those who say the PGA must remain in America. It seems to me they are saying it must, simply because it is an American organization, run by and for American golf pros. They are not saying another (international) event couldn't replace the PGA as the 4th major.

George,

I did understand and I am probably one of the few here that know the heritage of The Wanamaker Trophy along with my friend Steve Shaffer.

Somehow, I am doubting that the new golf era on FOX Sports is going to target old white guys from Philly  

Their new Eastern Sports channel starts on Saturday, and I am suggesting that the PGA Championship is a regional (USA) style event at this point in their eyes. Here is the NY Times view of the new FOX Sports:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/16/sports/fox-sports-1-an-espn-challenger-will-try-to-punch-above-its-weight.html?_r=0

If I was Greg Norman, I would call my friend Adam Scott with my friend's Rupert Murdoch's checkbook and say "Let's invite Rory and some of the other Aussies to an invitational in Hong Kong during the second week in August. Maybe Phil and Tiger will come over in a few years."

And thus starts the deterioration of the PGA, and FOX has a nice lead in to Fall football and playoff baseball....

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