Was Sand Hills...

[John Kavanaugh]

the last great set of greens that C&C ever built. It seems to me that everything after has been an attempt to one up perfection. I get the motivation but do not enjoy the result.

[Mac Plumart]

To base your comparisons on, what C&C's have you played, John?

What do you like so much about Sand Hill's greens?

[Mac Plumart]

Did you ever finish your Riviera vs. Sand Hills thread?

[John Kavanaugh]

Did you ever finish your Riviera vs. Sand Hills thread?

Yes, I believe it was a draw.  I'm flattered that you believe that it matters what other C&C courses I have played because that makes the leap that I have the ability to analyze what I have seen. I simply have the feeling that early in their career they designed the greens at Sand Hills in a beautiful natural flow much like the curves of a young woman. The later versions of other courses feel like Botox injected cellulite with all the right breaks where we both know they shouldn't be. Please, name me another artist who did their very best work at the start of their career that was not cursed for ever more?  Even when they finally built a great green like the 14th at Bandon Dunes they felt so ashamed they went and made it average. I feel sorry for them.

[Mac Plumart]

I'm flattered that you believe that it matters what other C&C courses I have played because that makes the leap that I have the ability to analyze what I have seen.

Pfft...c'mon!  You are one of the most brilliant minds in golf.

I am not sure if you are right or not, John.  But I think this could make for great discussion.  

Sand Hills' greens are darn near perfect.  Great natural settings, perfect mix of slope and speed (at last when I was there), and great interactions with the fairways and approaches.

I really liked Dormie's greens, but are they 100% C&C?  Sand Hill's are better that Cuscowilla's, but I wonder if that is simply a factor of the land at Sand Hills is better.  Cusco's are good, but can't be as good as Sand Hills due to the nature of the land.  Anyway, I could ramble on and on...but this touches on why I wanted to find out what C&C courses you've played/seen.  I haven't seen Friar's Head's greens, but I hear they are great.  Shanqin Bay?  Lost Farm?

[Bryan Icenhower]

I've never had the good fortune to play Sand Hills but wonder which of their courses built after Sand Hills you have played and not played

Klub Rimba Irian (1996)
The Golf Club at Cuscowilla (1996)   
Talking Stick Golf Club (1997)   
Chechessee Creek Club (2000)   
East Hampton Golf Club (2000)   
Austin Golf Club (2001)   
Friar's Head (2002)   
Hidden Creek Golf Club (2002)   
Old Sandwich Golf Club (2004)
We-Ko-Pa Golf Club "Saguaro Course" (2005)   
Bandon Trails (2005)   
Sugarloaf Mountain (2006)
Colorado Golf Club (2006)   
Clear Creek Tahoe (2009)   
Lost Farm at Barnbougle Dunes (2011)
The Dormie Club (2011)   
Streamsong Resort (2012)
 

[John Kavanaugh]

I have not played Friar's Head. I'm thinking of joining the Outpost Club just for that reason.

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks for the list, Bryan.

In addition to Sand Hills, I've played these.

The Golf Club at Cuscowilla (1996)     
Chechessee Creek Club (2000)       
Bandon Trails (2005)   
The Dormie Club (2011)   
Streamsong Resort (2012)

The only greens I don't care for are Chechessee's and I think, like I mentioned before, it comes down to the land they had to work with there.

Are Sand Hill's greens the best of that bunch?  Maybe.  But the other's are very good.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am a horrible putter so maybe it is just me but I hated the greens at Bandon Trails and Cuskowilla. I find it easier to hit a Nicklaus high fade than a Crenshaw 15 foot put that breaks like a yoke on a crabcake.

[Connor Dougherty]

I am a horrible putter so maybe it is just me but I hated the greens at Bandon Trails and Cuskowilla. I find it easier to hit a Nicklaus high fade than a Crenshaw 15 foot put that breaks like a yoke on a crabcake.

John,
When it comes to green contours it all comes down to green speeds. I haven't played on Trails when it's seemed like the greens were overly quick, but for the most part I thought their greens were pretty playable. The ones with the most contour have been softened a bit as well, in particular, the 15th.

I haven't seen Sand Hills (I tried when we were out there for the 5th Major to no avail) but if you're looking for greens with soft flow and contour from them Talking Stick was a great example of that for me. They had their greens running at ridiculous speeds when I played it, so I assumed that C&C had softer contours in the green complexes to account for that.

I've seen Clear Creek Tahoe, Bandon Trails, Barnbougle Lost Farm, The Dormie Club, and the Colorado Golf Club (which, I also felt had softer contours in the green complexes).

I'm also not sure I get your "yoke on a crabcake" analogy. Please explain this for the less sophisticated.  

Connor

[David Davis]

I think I agree with the softer contours comments at CGC, I quite enjoyed the greens at Bandon Trails but there are some pretty aggressive lines if I remember correctly, like that first little par 3 over the ravine. A lower right pin placement can almost require a 270 degree putt if I'm not mistaken.

As for Sand Hills, it's amazing that I can hardly remember them after just playing 3 rounds there. Somehow I only remember the hole seeming about the size of a large bucket so in my mind you can hit the ball anywhere and it simply funnels right into the hole. Among my favorites were #17 but some of the pin positions were tough like the back right position on #2.

I've not played too many of the others mentioned I'm afraid.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

Hidden Creek's greens are outstanding as are Friars Head's.

I also liked the greens at Streamsong Red

I don't see anything about them that pales in comparison to Sand Hills's greens.

What am I missing

[Jimmy Muratt]

John,

Sand Hills' greens are indeed fantastic, they mimic the surrounding terrain.  The landscape features these epic giant sand dunes, yet they still have gradual slopes.  To me, the greens look like a miniature version of the surrounding land.  Nothing forced or contrived, they simply look like the land.

I do think that they continue to build wonderful greens.  Friars Head and Old Sandwich are two of my favorites.  Friars Head features more internal contour but one very cool thing is that the greens set in the dunes seem like they have more severity than those in the flat portion of the property.  The holes in the flatter portion of the site seem to have more gradual slopes and tilt, while those up on the dunes are quite severe.  I, personally, enjoy the contract as the greens seem to again echo the land they they sit in.

Old Sandwich does a wonderful job in tying in the green surrounds with the greens themselves.  There are numerous false fronts and run-off areas.  The fescue fairways also present firm conditions that make the ground game a viable option.

[Dan Herrmann]

^^^
Jimmy - That first paragraph is so well written, and I think you hit the nail on the head.  Well done!

[Jerry Kluger]

I have played quite a few C & C courses including Sand Hills and I have never felt that they were trying to do more with the greens than they had done at SH.  I was fortunate to play Hidden Creek with Tommy N and George Bahto at Pat's event and I had to practically drag them off the greens because they were having so much fun trying different putts from various locations - I rest my case.