[Patrick_Mucci]

I played Piping Rock the other day.

It is one of the most enjoyable golfing and architectural experiences one could have.

I had also played The Creek, and will be playing NGLA shortly.

In observing these three courses, the architect/s duplicated holes.  They didn't find them naturally, they created these holes, which are replicas of other holes.

The Redan
Biarritz
Short
Alps
Cape
Road Hole
Etc., etc..

These architects recognized the timeless nature, sport and challenge of playing these holes.

Why don't modern architects duplicate these holes, and why don't they duplicate successful holes that they have designed at other courses ?

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat:
I'm not sure I agree with your premise although if a modern architect uses a redan or cape hole it normally makes the national press.

Pete Dye once said he has something like 11 holes in his mind and uses them over and over.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, You bring up an excellent point that a lot of architects tend to not realize or just plainly refuse to accept the inspiration. NGLA proved this to me!

How so?

We know that NGLA was inspired by 18 holes from the links of Great Britain, and they were ideally fit to the land. It is also painfully (notice how I say painfully) obvious the C.B. Mac made better holes with his examples. He knew the weaknesses of the originals by observation, something a lot of architects today know how to do, but fail to do it simply by not wanting to take a chance. They'll say, "back then they could do that stuff, but today we would be labeled lunatics if we did" and other things like that. But I think it is a lame excuse, albeit a somewhat cowardly one. If they want to be GREAT architects, then they have to take chances, and they have to entrust their ideals to what they have seen and been inspired from the past. Their decisions are usually based off of commericial value and how the are to be percieved in the marketplace. They don't want the thinking out there that they might get something so arcane as a blindshot approach over a massive sand hill to a green that falls away towards the bay--that's too unfair! (This shot also maybe Pat's most favorite in the Game that I know of.)

Since I just got back from seeing Olympic Club, lets examine the 1st on the Lake course. Does anyone care to comment n the movement that is occuring on that hole fom 75 yards in? It is some of the most imaginative if not promising evidence that someone understood the forces of Nature and Blind Luck. How may of you that have seen the course on TV, have noticed that dune like movement right there in the middle of the fairway, front right of the green? How many architects would even take a chance today in trying to recreate it or at least be inspired by it?

I'll stop now to see if I have unleashed a giant with any inappropriate comments, but if an architect simply doesn't take chances, meaning inspired by past examples of GREATNESS, then creation is not his forte.

[Paul_Turner]

We know that NGLA was inspired by 18 holes from the links of Great Britain, and they were ideally fit to the land. It is also painfully (notice how I say painfully) obvious the C.B. Mac made better holes with his examples.

Tommy

Not so fast!  I doubt that Macdonald ever built a Road or Eden hole as good as the originals; the Alps is debatable (NGLA vs Prestwick) as is the Sahara, and nobody appears to really know what the original Biarritz was exactly like, because there aren't any good old photos of it.  I'll give Macdonald the Redan and Short  

As for the question, if I was an architect, I simply wouldn't want to limit myself to that template.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul, I think you are totally missing the point of what I'm saying. There comes from all of this, an inspriation. Not that one is neccessarily better then the others, but how Architects should use the great holes as inspiration. MacDonald did it, and there is little doubt in my mind with his wonderful arrogance he thought of them as being better architecturally. Modern Architects shouldn't neccessarilybeing doing the same, but should be adapting their strategies from the independent creations, INSPIRED from PAST GREATNESS.  I t could be a shot, it could be a natural feature, it could be a unnatural quirk.

[Paul_Turner]

No Tommy, I understood what you were saying in answer to Patrick's question.  But weren't you stating your opinion not Mac's?  He would no doubt think his versions were the best.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul, Where am I advocating any use of a template? I'm calling for INSPIRATION! My Opinion is for architects to use NATURALLY inspired features and use the classics for further inspiration. NOT TO COPY THEM!

[T_MacWood]

MacKenzie said the best golf courses were natural ones, and I tend to agree with him. Courses that reproduce famous golf holes can be very expensive and reproducing these famous golf holes is easier said than done--has a representative Eden ever been replicated?

[Paul_Turner]

Tommy

We've got our wires crossed.  All I was questioning was your stated opinion that Macdonald's holes are better than the originals.

My template comment wasn't directed at you, it's just my own opinion.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Understood Paul, It was just my typically bad wording. I meant in his mind they were better. For example, I don't htink the Long Hole is better then #14--No way.

But CB probably felt it was representitive, if not better of the LH-In

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

I don't find templates objectionable.

If a hole has an intrinsic architectural value, and enjoys presenting both challenge and fun, why wouldn't a duplicate or site specific replica provide the same golfing experience.

If one looks at #4 at NGLA, # 3 at Piping Rock and #'s 1 & 8 at The Creek, and # 13 at Yale, all five present a scintilating challenge and fun.  The basic design of the hole is reaffirmed, irrespective of its location.

The same could be said of # 9 at Piping Rock and # 11 at The Creek and # 9 at Yale.

Ditto, # 6 at NGLA, # 17 at The Creek and # 13 at Piping Rock and # 5 at Yale.

Include # 13 at NGLA, # 15 at Yale, # 18 at GCGC, # 17 at The Knoll.

There is perpetual architectural and golfing value in those holes, so why not duplicate them ?

Is it more a product of the egos of modern day architects and the fear of being labeled unoriginal, or just the need to be different ?

Each of these holes are found on different sites, but the architect was able to incorporate them into the routing and hole designs quite effectively.

Why aren't more of these great holes incorporated into modern day designs ?

It can't be an inability to copy or construct, it has to be a flaw* in the design process.

[Tyler Kearns]

Pat,
 
     Although I've only played one Jim Engh design, I've heard it mentioned here on the site that he routinely builds the same double dogleg par 5, featuring a green and second shot landing area protected by a lake which is buffered from the fairway by bunker. The rendition at Hawktree (#7) in Bismarck, ND makes me wonder why he has selected this hole for repeated use, it's severe turning point angles, and extreme elevation change renders a 570 yard par-5 into a medium length par 4. Why not just make it a good long par 4 rather than impose a design upon land that is not condusive to such a hole?

Tyler Kearns

[Patrick_Mucci]

TKearns,

I can't answer that question.

Perhaps he likes the hole concept

[Paul_Turner]

I'd prefer to play truly original holes; to me if an architect brings something new and original to the field and it's top quality, then that's the height of the profession.  

A course like Pacific Dunes does have a couple of holes that were inspired by other holes (17th Redan, 8th Woking), but the high point of that course to me, are the truly original holes like the 6th and 9th.  I'd hate to see holes like that be sacrificed because the architects are sticking to a template.

The wolrd of golf courses would be-in my opinion- be poorer, if architects like Mackenzie, Colt and Thomas had stuck to templates of just a few holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that architects duplicate a set of templates for every hole.

Do you feel that the holes at NGLA, Yale, The Creek, Piping Rock and The Knoll are inferior, lack challenge and fun because they are the product of templates ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul, I hate to differ here again, because you and I are always on the same track, and probably even now but Mackenzie also had his repeated features or scenes if you will, here and there.

Wasn't the "templete" of Gilbralter used in several places? What about #12 at Augusta and its similarity to Stoke Poges? That same variation of the hole exists at Pitreavie in two different places! one where the setting is eeriely like Augusta #12, minus pond or creek and the other where the green is shallow, and requires the downhill carry of a small burn. Given, these were all variations, they were indeed similar. Even Redlands, a MacKenzie design had a reverse Redan, which is aptly called, "Redan." Mind you all of these I mention are of a one-shot variety. I can't think of any two or three shotters that could be likened the same.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Wouldn't you like to see more "bottle" and "cape" holes, just like the ones at NGLA ?

[George Pazin]

I think some would say Brian Silva appears to be utilizing this tact.

Pete Dye certainly seems to have some concept holes, though my sadly limited knowledge of his courses creates the impression that the better the site, the less he seems bound to concepts.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

Piping Rock, The Creek and NGLA all enjoy wonderful sites, yet template holes have been successfully incorporated into their designs.

With today's ability and willingness to move dirt, I don't think the quality of the site, good or bad, is a significant factor.

I don't think the answer lies in the dirt, rather in the brain of the architect.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, I think Pete Dye has taken the Cape template a little too far. More then one a round gets tiresome on every course, and his son Perry follows his suit quite often in my opinion. But Pete she never be overlooked for the provocative stuff he has done also. Take for instance at PGA West's 14th-Cavern. It is a Cape by any means, but it is one of the best set Cape carries I have seen on a modern course It challenges every form of play.

I have seen a fair amount of Bottle's also. Like at C&C's Plantation and Todd Eckenrode's Barona Creek which are solid tests. They aren't a whole lot like the NGLA version, but they are rely on the strategic ideology, which I feel is the point of your post, that hopefully everybody is understanding, correct?

I do agree with you to some extent also. If you have a site where earthmovment is required, or fill needed (i.e. like the fill from a cutout of a lake, for a Cape.) Architects should be inspired totally. I was suggesting that to a architect this week on a certain existing hole on a course that is need of strategy. That he get his from ideas of great holes he has seen. (In this one paticular instance--The Long Hole In.) Without going into great detail, it is something that could work, and it isn't an exact or even partial copy of the hole. It's strategies however are similar, even though features and hazards are not alike.

[T_MacWood]

I would attribute the model holes at ANGC to Bobby Jones, and the idea that it was meant to be his "ideal" golf course. Frankly-as far as can tell-none of them are slavish copies, in fact the "copies" in many cases are superior to the original-the Eden being an exception. One wonders if the hole models were invented after they were actually designed.

The Gibralter was a MacKenzie original, I thought. I was not aware he made a habit of copying famous golf holes. I do know he was of the opinion the best holes at Lido and NGLA were Macdonald's original creations. At Lido one was his original creation.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, I agree with that because they are his creations inspired by the originals. I also think this is what Pat is getting at.

So while we're at it, what holes do you thnk are inspirations at Garden City? Personally, I think it is a course on to itself, but.......................to some degree, an inspiration at #1 is from the Bottle to some degree. Although now that I think of it, the hole has been somewhat altered. I'm ready to get back there right now to play it again!:)

[T_MacWood]

Tommy
Aren't all artists inspired by the work of others to some degree...be they song writers, filmmakers or golf architects, but there is a difference between inspiration and slavish copies.

Which came first the 1st at GCGC or the Bottle Hole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

# 18 at GCGC is a duplicate of the Eden hole.

# 2 would seem to be a duplicate or hybrid hole.
The angle of the green, isn't dissimilar from a redan and the green does have a slight cant away from the tee.

Could #9 by a hybrid cape ?

The Knoll, which is a wonderful Banks course has many duplicates.

I would think that slight variations or interpretive designs would retain the theme of some of the great holes in golf, yet they seem extinct or unuseable by modern day architects.

Do you think, that if a modern day architect built a near duplicate of # 4 at NGLA that he would feel unoriginal, or not worth the money he was being paid by the developer ?

What impediment seems to prevent modern day architects from duplicating holes that are recognized as great ?

[Michael Dugger]

Pat, some modern architects do do adaptations from time to time, wouldn't you agree?

Seems the question you really wanted to ask is, are there enough original ideas left to justify NOT replicating the tried and trued holes of yesteryear?

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